Butcher Baker, the Righteous Maker...

[Kamakazi]

Not sure I actually want to recap this one laddies, so instead I think we should all posit our personal answers to the one burning question that that Butcher, Baker #1 brings up:

How the hell was Butcher's family the poorest family in London, yet apparently had a Butler? Does everyone in England have a Butler?

So anyway: a serviceable First Issue, although I'm not really sure why it even exists. There is no character arc here. Butcher has always been Butcher. All we get from this issue is a bunch of hoary "Angela's Ashes" style cliches. Gee, Butcher hates his dad. Man, I never saw that one coming. And his mom, like every mom, is a saint. A saint so completely retarded that she marries (and stays with) a hyper-violent buffoon who beats her.

The thing is: we've seen this story a million times before. At least Frenchie's story had the virtue of being unique, if nothing else.

[saidestroyer]

Damn you. Now I want--no, I DEMAND a Frenchie miniseries! With Kyle Baker art!

[Kamakazi]

Damn you. Now I want--no, I DEMAND a Frenchie miniseries! With Kyle Baker art!

It would rival Preacher itself for sheer, sublime awesomeness! Wait, wait, I have it:

"Frenchy vs the Crossed during WWII!" No other Graphic Novel would EVER have to be written. Burn those copies of Watchmen, folks!

[saidestroyer]

It would rival Preacher itself for sheer, sublime awesomeness! Wait, wait, I have it:

"Frenchy vs the Crossed during WWII!" No other Graphic Novel would EVER have to be written. Burn those copies of Watchmen, folks!

Throw ol' Proinsias Cassidy in the mix, and we have a winner!

[saidestroyer]

Wanker! Fanny! Hullo! Maw! More british/scott/irish slang! Bollocks! Mitchy me!

[gwiereng]

I don't think that was a butler. Probably just a local funeral home guy who knew the family and was overseeing some sort of open viewing in the home.

[Boris]

I don't think that was a butler. Probably just a local funeral home guy who knew the family and was overseeing some sort of open viewing in the home.



You're right, he's a mortician (he says he prepared and dressed the body of Butcher sr. all night), who apparently was also friend of the father (the Butcher, the Baker, and the Undertaker).



Anyway, let's celebrate, because I disagree with Kamakazi (a hint this mini will be great!).

I'd be quite disappointed if Butcher had some "epic tragedy" story behind him. His tale, at least so far, is quite grim and bad to understand him, yet too "normal" to justify him (we don't WANT a good cause for ol'Billy, right? We want him a bastard from hell who hides his bastardness behind his misfortunes, like real bastards).

I can see it coming: Troubled Teen Butcher joins the Royal Marines and wreaks havoc for the Queen, then Bitter Veteran Butcher misses the good times and wreaks havoc as a civilian, and finally Failed Husband Butcher find himself to be worse than his father and wreaks havoc with his wife.
Then the Homelander steps in as Chief Bastard, and Vengeful Madman Butcher finds his good reason to wreak havoc.

[saidestroyer]

I'd be quite disappointed if Butcher had some "epic tragedy" story behind him. His tale, at least so far, is quite grim and bad to understand him, yet too "normal" to justify him (we don't WANT a good cause for ol'Billy, right? We want him a bastard from hell who hides his bastardness behind his misfortunes, like real bastards).

I can see it coming: Troubled Teen Butcher joins the Royal Marines and wreaks havoc for the Queen, then Bitter Veteran Butcher misses the good times and wreaks havoc as a civilian, and finally Failed Husband Butcher find himself to be worse than his father and wreaks havoc with his wife.
Then the Homelander steps in as Chief Bastard, and Vengeful Madman Butcher finds his good reason to wreak havoc.

It makes sense.



Anyway, this issue felt like a way too quick read! Damn!

[statsman]

I think the key takeaway is that the Butcher shown here (courageous in battle, willing to commit violence against bullies, ready to rush into a fight heedlessly) is not the same Butcher described by Mallory (cunning, plotting psychopath). Of course, in the prior arc, we have seen elements of both- the slaughter in Russia, braining in various abusive supes, countered with the willingness to stand down against Super Duper, and take a beating to help MM save his daughter.

I hope Ennis has a plan here that ties this all together. I still think that the killer of Mallory (if he even is dead) is meant to be a mystery.

[Simon Rogerson]

I agree this miniseries has the makings of something special, and even if it plays out entirely as predicted, I think it will be well worth a read. I enjoyed the first instalment, with the contrasts between young Butcher and the cynical, scheming character we see glowering over his father's body. His younger brother has to tell him to stop and think about the consequences of his planned actions, a far cry from the calculating adult who gives so little away. I wonder though, will he prove to be a "failed husband" or will his wife Rebecca be some sort of calming influence setting the scene for a greater tragedy when she is raped? Mallory hints that she had an extraordinary effect on the wild, post-Falklands Butcher. So Ennis must really convince us of this relationship before the terrible blow comes and the character we know emerges – vengeful, sadistic and amoral. That said, Ennis has given us occasional hints of Butcher's sentimental side, so I'm not sure he is supposed to be completely amoral. I'll be interested to see how the none-too subtle parallel between his younger brother and Hughie is explored. The fate of the little brother could be key here... I look forward to seeing what happens.

[saidestroyer]

It just hit me: Butcher's brother didn't let him do something stupid, made him think. Hughie didn't let him murder Super Duper (FUKIN CUNT!).

Would it be that Butcher wants to have a voice of consience? He want redemption, but wouldn't admit it, even to himself?

And even more important: When will we have a Hughie/Soap/Hacken crossover?

[Simon Rogerson]

It just hit me: Butcher's brother didn't let him do something stupid, made him think. Hughie didn't let him murder Super Duper (FUKIN CUNT!).

Would it be that Butcher wants to have a voice of consience? He want redemption, but wouldn't admit it, even to himself?

And even more important: When will we have a Hughie/Soap/Hacken crossover?

You could be onto something there. The question is what happened to Butcher's brother? (Fucking cunt!!) (sorry!):eek:

[Hot_Ch0c0]

You could be onto something there. The question is what happened to Butcher's brother? (Fucking cunt!!) (sorry!):eek:

Hughie does appear to be a "little brother replacement". The series (including the cliche's) shows promise. I would rather see the traditional evil bastard building blocks in place in Butcher's life than see him have a "normal" family and Butcher just became a psychopath for fun...

Butcher's wife will probably be a "good mother replacement" in his eyes. It appears Butcher needs someone to help him look at the "brighter side" of the world as opposed to his father's version of reality.... When Homelander takes Butcher's wife away, any hope Butcher had for "redemption" was lost and he recognized the true path for him is being a manipulating, vicious, violent bastard with a cause... However, I'm sure Butcher views himself as "better" than his father who was a manipulating, vicious, violent bastard who only thought of himself and only affected the "sheep" in his neighborhood... Butcher is saving the whole bleeding world from supes, a big step up...

I have a bad feeling things don't end up well for Butcher's baby brother and mother... (after all, he's at the wake by himself) But, we'll see...

By the way, statsman, I didn't view Butcher as courageous... He just was trying to kill the bastard who was trying to kill him in spite of the danger...spiteful, vengeful and unflinching in his resolve... Just like "present day" Butcher. Yes, he would take out his father as revenge for his mother... But, among his peers and teachers, he would just take out his aggression/frustration on anyone....

[saidestroyer]

You could be onto something there. The question is what happened to Butcher's brother? (Fucking cunt!!) (sorry!):eek:

No need to apologize. I know you can't help it (and Butcher's brother kind of looks like a fucking cunt).

[statsman]

By the way, statsman, I didn't view Butcher as courageous... He just was trying to kill the bastard who was trying to kill him in spite of the danger...spiteful, vengeful and unflinching in his resolve... Just like "present day" Butcher. Yes, he would take out his father as revenge for his mother... But, among his peers and teachers, he would just take out his aggression/frustration on anyone....

Fair point. Let's see what the next issue reveals. Does it portray Butcher with more "nuance" than Mallory portrayed him with? Or does it re-enforce the image of him as a psychopath?

Mallory did tell one side of a two-sided story. Butcher's side might go like this- "The old SOB signed me on proomising revenge against the a**hole that destroyed my family. I did his dirty work for years, only to discover he had no end game in mind, and was just working towards a pension. Hell, yeah, I shook things up!"

[Kamakazi]

I don't think that was a butler. Probably just a local funeral home guy who knew the family and was overseeing some sort of open viewing in the home.

Upon re-reading, I see that you are correct. :) I'm a little disappointed that Butlers aren't standard-issue in England, though. Heh.

[Simon Rogerson]

Maybe not, but we all have our personal morticians in the East End. ;)

[saidestroyer]

You could be onto something there. The question is what happened to Butcher's brother? (Fucking cunt!!) (sorry!):eek:

I'm re-reading "Barbary Coast" (there's a love making-load of info thrown there). Mallory tells Hughie that Butcher's brother died in an accident aged 19, his mum but the dust recently, and his father was still alive (at least right before "Butcher Baker" begins).

[Simon Rogerson]

Yes indeed, but there's a 'great unsaid' there somewhere, I think. From what we have seen so far, young Butcher loves his little brother and respects his intelligence. A recurring motif in The Boys is Butcher saying to Hughie: "I always wanted a little brother."

So why does he now disavow the existence of the little brother he once loved? If Butcher Jr had simply died in an accident, Billy could have just as easily said. "I had a little brother, once." He chooses to tell Hughie about his wife and the rape in order to establish common ground, but holds back on the truth about his brother. Someting going on there, I think.

Don't forget that Mallory, Vought Guy, Jess Bradley and even Frenchie have all remarked on the lack of background information on Butcher. It may be that Butcher jr was the last link that Billy had to any sort of morality, and his death plays almost as significant a role as that of Rebecca. Or not. Like, whatever, dude.

[Boris]

Ok, there's issue 2 to discuss about, but I really don't think it deserves a thread.



Butcher, in spite of his nice veteran grandad who advised against military life (doesn't everybody have one?), joins the Royal Marines and he's stuck into the Falklands. He kills somebody, threats somebody else, survives his pals, and gets a bullet, realizing that dying is the closest thing to peace he's felt in his life.

Then he goes back home, realizes that killing people makes you feared by everyone, and gets a curious habit of starting fights with innocent bystanders AND being beaten to a pulp (I'm sure there's some suuuuubtle hint here, but I'm leaving that to you folks), while becoming a violent drunkard exactly like his father (who, meanwhile, has a stroke or two and quits beating his family).

That's all. If there was something I missed, well, I must have missed it.

This is rapidly becoming the boring spoof of Punisher:Born. :confused:

[saidestroyer]

Ok, there's issue 2 to discuss about, but I really don't think it deserves a thread.



Butcher, in spite of his nice veteran grandad who advised against military life (doesn't everybody have one?), joins the Royal Marines and he's stuck into the Falklands. He kills somebody, threats somebody else, survives his pals, and gets a bullet, realizing that dying is the closest thing to peace he's felt in his life.

Then he goes back home, realizes that killing people makes you feared by everyone, and gets a curious habit of starting fights with innocent bystanders AND being beaten to a pulp (I'm sure there's some suuuuubtle hint here, but I'm leaving that to you folks), while becoming a violent drunkard exactly like his father (who, meanwhile, has a stroke or two and quits beating his family).

That's all. If there was something I missed, well, I must have missed it.

This is rapidly becoming the boring spoof of Punisher:Born. :confused:

"It's okay, mate. It only hurts when I laugh... Hahahaha..."

The Punisher: Born rehash thing came to my mind, too.

[Kamakazi]

So basically, we get an entire mini just to inform us that Butcher is a dick.

[saidestroyer]

So basically, we get an entire mini just to inform us that Butcher is a dick.

We already got one to inform us that Hughie's a moron. And that superheroes annual crossovers are all about f-in.

[Kamakazi]

We already got one to inform us that Hughie's a moron. And that superheroes annual crossovers are all about f-in.

Come to think of it, we also got an arc dedicated to informing us that Mother's Milk is black, and an issue devoted to Frenchy being French.

Every once in a while, I pull out "Welcome Back, Frank" or "Preacher" just to remind me why I keep hanging on. :) Much like I occasionally re-read the original Ultimates run to remind myself that Mark Millar isn't completely retarded.

[Simon Rogerson]

He's probably not French. You missed the point, such as it was.;)

[Hot_Ch0c0]

I just had a thought:

What is the time frame of Butcher going and having this "post mortem heart to heart" with Daddy?

Obviously, it is after Butcher joined the Boys... But, is it

1. right after Mallory recruited him (when it was just the two)
2. Somewhere in the process of recruiting the others.
3. While the Boys were a full team, handling business Pre 9/11
4. Post 9/11 after Mallory disbanded the team.
5. After Butcher brought the team together
6. While Hughie was wandering around like an idiot...

I'm guessing since Mallory didn't tell Hughie Butcher's dad was dead, it is relatively recent (post Mallory disbanding the team)... But, who knows?

I only wrote this because I'm hoping the series might give us a clue to the Frenchman's TRUE origin... Or insights into something other than Butcher's origin (which we already know, at this point, minus a few details)

The two issues showed us he has a knack for violence, manipulation and a mean streak a mile wide. Plus (just like the MM origin) Butcher enjoys starting situations that end up with him getting the crap beaten out of him...

Foreshadowing the final confrontation with Homelander? Hmmmm

[Simon Rogerson]

It is unclear exactly at which point Butcher's trip to England is taking place. I had assumed concurrent with The Boys, maybe between the events of Barbary coast and the new arc, whatever it's called. Butcher's reminiscing is only taking place over a day, so while the series may go on for eight months, it needn't affect The Boys timeline. I suppose the idea is to flesh out his character and lead into whatever kicks off in 2011.

I agree ‘Butcher Baker’ is a bit like the Punisher: Born series, but I don't have a problem with that, and I don't see it as a parody. In any case, it goes right back to Butcher's childhood, whereas Born was primarily a war story. In my experience these character-driven arcs are frustrating as monthly comics, but work well as trade paperbacks. I would have been quite frustrated by some of the more wayward diversions on Preacher had I been waiting a month between instalments, but I came to the series when it was complete, and burned through the books.

I've been reading Ennis for a while now, and I know he’s got weak points. He's great on sly humour, a little clumsy with detail and not that original when it comes to characterisation. But he is very, veryfunny, and I'd say has a wonderfully askew way of looking at the (super) human condition. He's a bit like his hero Bill Hicks - an inspirational, incendiary ball of vitriol, but vulnerable at the same time (remember the Belfast life scenes in Hellblazer?).

As for Frenchie, in times of real stress or gravitas he speaks in English patterns without much ‘franglais’, so my money is on him being an English guy who joined the Foreign Legion and never exactly mastered the language. If I was the writer, I would think it would be more fun to leave Frenchie's true origin unclear, as the speculation could be more fun than knowing the reality.

[Kamakazi]

The problem I'm having with this mini is that Butcher really IS just a cheap knockoff of Ennis's Punisher. Remember how Ennis RetConned Frank so that instead of a being a guy who went crazy after witnessing the death of his family, he was suddenly a homicidal asshole who'd ALWAYS been a maddog killer? What sucked about that was that it took away all subtlety and nuance from the character. Instead of an angry Everyman, Frank suddenly became just a sociopath who was looking for a reason to kill, and who literally made a deal with the Devil (according to Born, anyway) to become a murder-machine.

All along, I've wanted to believe that Butcher had more to him that "Giant Dickhead." Why? Because that would give me someone to care about. I know Ennis wants it to be Hughie that we care about, but if that were the case, maybe he shouldn't of spent four years portraying Hughie as a brain-damaged cretin. But now, I couldn't care less about any of The Boys. In fact, it appears to me that that I'm not the only one who's rooting for The Seven- if not to win, then at least to be treated with a hair more dignity than the G-Men and Payback. But at the moment, the only good ending for this book would be if The Authority tacked in through the Bleed and killed everyone involved.

[saidestroyer]

I just had a thought:

What is the time frame of Butcher going and having this "post mortem heart to heart" with Daddy?

Obviously, it is after Butcher joined the Boys... But, is it

1. right after Mallory recruited him (when it was just the two)
2. Somewhere in the process of recruiting the others.
3. While the Boys were a full team, handling business Pre 9/11
4. Post 9/11 after Mallory disbanded the team.
5. After Butcher brought the team together
6. While Hughie was wandering around like an idiot...

I'm guessing since Mallory didn't tell Hughie Butcher's dad was dead, it is relatively recent (post Mallory disbanding the team)... But, who knows?

I only wrote this because I'm hoping the series might give us a clue to the Frenchman's TRUE origin... Or insights into something other than Butcher's origin (which we already know, at this point, minus a few details)

The two issues showed us he has a knack for violence, manipulation and a mean streak a mile wide. Plus (just like the MM origin) Butcher enjoys starting situations that end up with him getting the crap beaten out of him...

Foreshadowing the final confrontation with Homelander? Hmmmm

I think the Butcher mini takes place right after good ol' Billy settles the score with Monkey in D.C. or any other time before Hugie goes back to the office, but I might be wrong.

I try not to think of the end too much, but yeah, it seems a lot like foreshadowing.

[Simon Rogerson]

The problem I'm having with this mini is that Butcher really IS just a cheap knockoff of Ennis's Punisher. Remember how Ennis RetConned Frank so that instead of a being a guy who went crazy after witnessing the death of his family, he was suddenly a homicidal asshole who'd ALWAYS been a maddog killer? What sucked about that was that it took away all subtlety and nuance from the character. Instead of an angry Everyman, Frank suddenly became just a sociopath who was looking for a reason to kill, and who literally made a deal with the Devil (according to Born, anyway) to become a murder-machine.

All along, I've wanted to believe that Butcher had more to him that "Giant Dickhead." Why? Because that would give me someone to care about. I know Ennis wants it to be Hughie that we care about, but if that were the case, maybe he shouldn't of spent four years portraying Hughie as a brain-damaged cretin. But now, I couldn't care less about any of The Boys. In fact, it appears to me that that I'm not the only one who's rooting for The Seven- if not to win, then at least to be treated with a hair more dignity than the G-Men and Payback. But at the moment, the only good ending for this book would be if The Authority tacked in through the Bleed and killed everyone involved.

Hmm. The Punisher made a deal with Death, or at least an abstract notion of death. So Frank became an agent of Death, at least in his head. Not the devil.

I enjoyed the Punisher Max run, but I'm going to be selling on my trade paperbacks, because the character was too simplistic to keep me interested. Enjoys conflict, just needs an excuse for revenge, exacts revenge while scowling. However Butcher is completely different: enjoys conflict; doesn't particularly need an excuse for his private war but has one anyway; exacts notional revenge while smirking. See? Worlds apart!
:)

[Kamakazi]

I love you, Simon. But don't let Boris know. He gets insanely jealous. :D

[Simon Rogerson]

Your secret's safe with me, lover-boy.:D (work the shaft!)

[Kamakazi]

Anyone else recognize the cover of Issue #2?

http://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/heading_into_port_stanley.jpg?w=470&h=626

[Simon Rogerson]

Good spot – I thought it looked familiar. I guess it's one of the iconic images of the Falklands conflict.

[statsman]

Am I the first to note that Hughie and Butcher's wife are both redheads? Is Hughie old enough to be the offspring of Butcher's wife and the Homelander (I know Butcher said he killed the child, but...)? I know the logic breaks down with the whole A-Train thing, but...

[Simon Rogerson]

Naah. You're barking up the wrong tree there.

[statsman]

You're right. That would be stupid. I kep thinking that the three big mysteries are-

1. What the hell is Vought Guy?
2. Who killed Mallory (80% sure it wasn't Butcher)?
3. The seed fropped about Hughie's adoption...what's the back story?

[MisterS]

You're right. That would be stupid. I kep thinking that the three big mysteries are-

1. What the hell is Vought Guy?
2. Who killed Mallory (80% sure it wasn't Butcher)?
3. The seed fropped about Hughie's adoption...what's the back story?

Some other mysteries...

-What's the deal with Black Noir?
-What happened to Laddio?
-Is Mallory really dead?

One other thing I've noticed about Butcher during this mini.

-Where's Terror?

[saidestroyer]

I noticed another thing:

- Butcher's mom' eye looks fookin' hilarious. Fookin' Ennis.
- And another thing: My avatar still looks amazing.

[Simon Rogerson]

I noticed another thing:

- Butcher's mom' eye looks fookin' hilarious. Fookin' Ennis.
- And another thing: My avatar still looks amazing.

She reminds me a little of Tracey Ullman.

[Simon Rogerson]

Oh, and while we're at it... could this be a possible model for Butcher?

[Kamakazi]

Funny how issue #3 came and went with almost no commentary. See what happens when I don't write a snarky review? :)

In a nutshell:

MEET CUTE!
IMPROBABLY GORGEOUS, SAINTLY GIRL FALLS FOR BAD-BOY!
FORMERLY SOCIOPATHIC LUNATIC REFORMS!
IMPROBABLY GORGEOUS GIRL DOESN'T REALIZE SHE'S GORGEOUS!
DADDY ISSUES!
MARRIAGE!

[Simon Rogerson]

Did you like it? I thought it was pretty good, though I suspect the series will work better as a TP.

[Kamakazi]

Did you like it? I thought it was pretty good, though I suspect the series will work better as a TP.

Yeah, I really did! It was a great issue, which of course left me with little to write about.

And yes, I agree that it'll work better as a TP. Most "long form" stories do, and I wish I could pop ahead in time to snag a finished copy. :)

It had some cliches going on, but it was friggin' King Lear compared to Highland Laddy. I hope we get at least one more issue like this before Ennis moves on to the rapin' and killin'.

[blarneycock]

SPOILERS AHOY!

aghgh
aaaaghhh
aurrrrrrrr
eeeeeeeeeeeee










-----------
Butcher #4 was hectic! I was so shocked at the opening, considering that so much time was spent developing sibling butcher, only to have him killed off-panel (honestly, I never thought it would be so random either, I was expecting it to emerge that he was homosexual and that he got killed in a hate crime! yikes! so much for convention!)
As for the rest of the issue, what can i say? There was one really bizarre low-angle reaction shot from Billy, in which he looks like quasimodo....

cheers