Why dosn't Zorro carry his gun/pistolas...?

[Guicho]

Granted it's likely single shot black-powder pistols, but that would have been the weapon of the time.
It still bugs me that Dynamite insists on ridiculously portraying Zorro without pistols. And I really hated the way he went out in that Lone Ranger crossover , like he wouldn't update his arsenal and ignore that guns had advanced. He's not Batman who refuses to carry a gun, he uses a lethal weapons, he can use them without killing, and he'd have access to the best!

McCulley's version routinely carried a gun (the infamous "Devil's weapon"),
Fairbanks' version carried a gun,
Tyrone Powers version carried a gun.
In the ZFL serials he used dual pistols.
It's like I get he prefers to force a sword duel, he's famous for the whip and sword, he'd rather humiliate and mark them than kill, that's his thing, but it was never implied that he wouldn't ever use or carry pistols. In fact he was proficient with both! It was never one or the other, that's ridiculous.

*"The first move from any of you, señores, means that I fire. I am expert with this you have termed the devil's weapon..." - Johnston McCulley

Robinhood is most recognized and celebrated for the bow, does that mean he shouldn't have his sword. Tarzan's popular imagery is that he swings from a vine, does that mean he can't walk!? The image of Captain Midnight is flying a plane does that mean he can't drive!
One shouldn't make the other just illogically disappear, It's like people just blankly forgot he'd carry pistols, cause the sword imagery was so powerful, but it was never at the exclusion of the other, and it kills me that Dynamite who is steeped in the gritty pulps would perpetuate this ridiculous idea.

http://www.zorrolegend.com/origin/zorrofreesslaves.jpg

....rant! : p



Fairbanks as per McCulley- http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b178/GuitchoYojimbo/ZorroconPistolaMarkofZorro.jpg

Powers remake - http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6240/zorrotyronepowergunshad.jpg

The Dell pre-Disney straight McCulley adaptations - http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4421/zorrodellgundevil.jpg

The pistol is part of his established arsenal, and why wouldn't it be. He is profisiant with it, he has the speed , dexterity and skill with a gun/pistola that rivals the likes of the Lone Ranger and Phantom's famous non lethal trick shots.
It's part of what he does, and he was doing it before them, why continue to rob him of this aspect, literally deny this other tool in his belt.

[Tulku]

I don't think you will find this satisfying, but I will try because you are obviously a Zorro fan and that makes you my friend:

You are right that Zorro did carry guns in a number of incarnations, including McCulley's conception. But Zorro has always changed certain details over time. If you have ever read any of McCulley's later Zorro stories you know that he himself altered aspects of the character as he went along. The most famous example is that he started to have Diego do sleight of hand magic in response to Douglas Fairbanks' portrayal. And he originally just called him Diego Vega--the use of the name Diego de la Vega was a later version. Duncan Regehr's version was much more interested in science than his predecessors had been. Each generation makes its own Zorro.

All of which leads me to the DE version, which also added and changed details of the character. The Zorro: Year One run that DE did (I don't think it was actually called that, but that is what it essentially was) went into his training with a secret society in Spain dedicated to operating in the shadows to secure justice--and it had all sorts of interesting rules concerning honor.

So, bottom line, this Zorro does not use guns because he does not deem it honorable. Or, at least, that's how I have been viewing it.

[positronic]

Two words: "Walt Disney". For better or worse.

Why, I'm not exactly sure, since Davy Crockett, the Scarecrow of Romney Marsh, and other Disney series heroes used guns. Maybe to blunt any inevitable comparisons to the Lone Ranger, who got to TV first?

[BatHobbit]

I think Zorro should not carry a gun because he has to be seen as a symbol, a legend, something more than a man. If he shot the bad guys, even in a non lethal manner, it would detract from that. Instead he uses a sword and marks them, humiliating them and separating them from their ill gotten gains. He gives the poor and oppressed something to look up to and I am not sure that just another gunslinger could do that.

I am fine with Zorro occasionally taking a foes gun or even killing an enemy (in the heat of battle not in cold blood) but I think having him carry a gun would take something away from the character. I know he has done it before but all heroes change and evolve over time some for better some for worse.

[positronic]

Granted it's likely single shot black-powder pistols ... he has the speed, dexterity and skill with a gun/pistola that rivals the likes of the Lone Ranger and Phantom's non lethal trick shots.

A black power pistol really isn't a marksman's weapon. It's not really an aiming weapon, more of a point-and-shoot weapon, and mostly for close range. It's essentially a hand cannon. A ball instead of a cylindrical missle-shaped bullet, and no grooves on the barrel to give the projectile spin, which increases accuracy. So if you're carrying a black power pistol, get as close to your target as you can, and be prepared to kill.

I don't remember The Phantom ever mentioning a code against killing or the unwillingness to kill if necessary. Yes, I'm sure he'd avoid it if the option were available, but I'm sure over the centuries the Phantom line must have killed hundreds of pirates and criminals. Not that he hunts them down with the intention of executing them, but he's been in plenty of tight situations where he had to shoot it out.

[BatHobbit]

Phantom does use non lethal trick shots but I think he does kill if he has to (heat of battle not cold blood). I think zorro is kind of the same way but you are right a black powder gun is not the kind of precise weapon Zorro would use. Maybe later on (like in death of zorro) he might have added something to his arsenal as the tech improved.

[torqueflite]

I wondered about this myself since the soldiers are forever shooting - and missing - with their single-shot muskets. It's not a deal-breaker but admittedly unrealistic.

As another poster has noted, Dynamite's Zorro is an amalgamation of all the popular Zorro-lore of all time. There's McCulley's creation with lots of helpings from Douglas Fairbanks and Tyrone Power, Basil Rathbone, Britt Lomond, Duncan Regehr and others. My personal favorite is the Walt Disney TV show, probably because I grew up with it. Disney substituted Sgt. Gargia for Sgt. Gonzales and I think he added a lot to the program. A case can be made for both and Dynamite has used both in different story arcs. I was not a fan of the later Regehr TV version but the scientific bent that show added was a good contribution to the mythos. Now Dynamite has made Zorro a mestizo and Bernardo is no longer merely a servant. That's keeping up with the times and the values of our society.

I think there is room for many different takes on a character. If I were writing the stories, Zorro would have a pistol in his waistband and probably another on his saddle.

[Guicho]

You are right that Zorro did carry guns in a number of incarnations, including McCulley's conception. But Zorro has always changed certain details over time. If you have ever read any of McCulley's later Zorro stories you know that he himself altered aspects of the character as he went along. The most famous example is that he started to have Diego do sleight of hand magic in response to Douglas Fairbanks' portrayal. And he originally just called him Diego Vega--the use of the name Diego de la Vega was a later version. Duncan Regehr's version was much more interested in science than his predecessors had been. Each generation makes its own Zorro.

True, there's many interpretations, I'm emphasizing many of the popular ones that did have him carry a gun as a standard part of his arsenal, one he is "expert" in.
If it's an informed choice to depict him without one I just disagree with the choice, no big deal, if not, i'm just trying to draw attentions to it, and how the pistols have been popularly portrayed with the character.


All of which leads me to the DE version, which also added and changed details of the character. The Zorro: Year One run that DE did (I don't think it was actually called that, but that is what it essentially was) went into his training with a secret society in Spain dedicated to operating in the shadows to secure justice--and it had all sorts of interesting rules concerning honor.
So, bottom line, this Zorro does not use guns because he does not deem it honorable. Or, at least, that's how I have been viewing it.

It's McCulley who in fact introduced the scene that established that aspect of honor with the sword over the gun(what he deemed "the devils weapon"), and had him be an expert with both. If anything that aspect - having both and forcing the sword when possible, emphasised the point.
There's no reason he can't appropriately use pistols to protect himself and others when necessary, and also use them to force a perceived more honorable sword dual. (again these are one shot black powder pistols, the default weapon will inevitably be a sword anyway)
What Allende brought to it and Wagner adapted I thought was a great addition to the character's back story, the training and honor learned through La Justicia, none of which conflicts with him carrying pistolas as per McCulley.


I don't think you will find this satisfying, but I will try because you are obviously a Zorro fan and that makes you my friend:
That's cool.


Two words: "Walt Disney". For better or worse.

Why, I'm not exactly sure, since Davy Crockett, the Scarecrow of Romney Marsh, and other Disney series heroes used guns. Maybe to blunt any inevitable comparisons to the Lone Ranger, who got to TV first?
No like their Davy Crockett, Scarecrow of Romney Marsh, and other Disney heroes, Disney had no problem with Zorro using a gun too, in at least one episode he even brings a guy down with a musket/rifle.
Guy Williams, Disney Zorro
http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/other/grand/6921b9f2277c7da37dc46b9e35942a74.gif

Heck they even marketed them to kids...
http://www.nicholscapguns.com/graphics/scrapbook/marx/zorro-1.jpg

How beautiful is that toy pistol! That's exactly what he would carry.

It's just contemporary writers have brainfarted the idea that he would carry gun/pistolas away.

I think they've ignorantly somehow "reverse-engineered" if you will, a post pulp era gun-free Batman backwards onto Zorro, and ignored the actual character Zorro.


I think Zorro should not carry a gun because he has to be seen as a symbol, a legend, something more than a man. If he shot the bad guys, even in a non lethal manner, it would detract from that.
....He gives the poor and oppressed something to look up to and I am not sure that just another gunslinger could do that.

Do you see ensuing characters like The Lone Ranger or The Phantom who carry guns and masterfully like Zorro can and would use them "non-lethally" to disarm, as characters who can't be looked up to or characters who are less than men?


I think there is room for many different takes on a character. If I were writing the stories, Zorro would have a pistol in his waistband and probably another on his saddle.
Agreed, there's plenty of legit ways to interpret him, I'm just trying to draw more attention to the popular ones where he did carry his pistols, and there a many, I think it's a legit way to portray him. Like you, that's how I picture him.

[positronic]

Like it or not, Zorro will now probably be forever associated with his skill in swordmanship. He leaves the "sign of the Z". That is The Mark of Zorro.

Earlier incarnations of Zorro made good use of the bullwhip, another weapon in Zorro's arsenal seen rather infrequently these days, along with the pistolas. It's probably more realistic that he would use all three, according to the needs of the situation, but nothing comes close to the imagery of those three horizontal-diagonal-horizontal cuts, leaving his initial.

[Guicho]

but nothing comes close to the imagery of those three horizontal-diagonal-horizontal cuts, leaving his initial.
I don't think anyone would deny that, and certainly hasn't here.
http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/other/grand/d1d625ae793f453dffe91e6b529669f5.gif http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/other/grand/be44ad07d1e9972fd297b24b7d3fd995.gif http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/other/grand/ad0c2d6fdac0f6da98d5fceb65383a92.gif


Like it or not, Zorro will now probably be forever associated with his skill in swordmanship. He leaves the "sign of the Z". That is The Mark of Zorro.
Now?
Sorry, but that's not something new or just happened "now". That was the defining characteristic from the get go, from the first story and first movie onward. McCulley pretty much opens and closes with it. LOL
And where did I or anyone ever say or even suggest they did not like that aspect?
Are you just inventing things to argue about . LOL



Earlier incarnations of Zorro made good use of the bullwhip, another weapon in Zorro's arsenal seen rather infrequently these days, along with the pistolas. It's probably more realistic that he would use all three, according to the needs of the situation,

Agreed! Unless they weren't aware, I'm not very sympathetic of Dynamite perpetuating the myth that he wouldn't have his pistola. It's definitely been a recognizable, logical and oft used popular portrayal of the character.

If anything, I had hoped that Dynamie would be the ones to help shoot down that lame no-gun myth.

[positronic]

Well, maybe I wasn't being clear enough. What I meant is that over time, the thing that most people have found most memorable about Zorro is his swordmanship and especially his signature 'Z'. And since it is a much better visual for film and comic books, that has tended to be focused on more and more over time, while the other aspects have withered and tended to fall away a little bit, particularly since guns have been considered politically (if not historically) incorrect for a G-rated character since the 1970s. In prose, all of these things tend to carry equal value in terms of descriptive scenes, but some things just make for more memorable visuals. I think it's also assumed that the sword thing doesn't lend itself as much to what child psychologists (and media censors) refer to as "imitable acts". I know it doesn't make much sense, that generations of kids were raised on movies, serials, and TV series where the hero carried a gun and at that time it was considered OK. Just like once a upon a time, cartoons were filled with "funny" violence, and somehow all of us who grew up on them didn't turn into mass murderers. But I think Zorro is now categorized as a "kids character", and is scrutinized under a microscope as a role model for children. Go figure.

[Guicho]

Well, maybe I wasn't being clear enough. What I meant is that over time, the thing that most people have found most memorable about Zorro is his swordmanship and especially his signature 'Z'. And since it is a much better visual for film and comic books, that has tended to be focused on more and more over time,
Over time? Tended to be focused on?
Again, the sword was always the focus from the get go, that hasn't changed over time, why would it.
And no one is suggesting that should change.
He is also known to carry a pistol though, this isn't some foreign element that would be added to the character, it's already there, a standard part of his arsenal.
Whatever the 70's had to say about it. This is now the heavy pulp-steeped Dynamite in 2013 we're talking about.


I think Zorro is now categorized as a "kids character", and is scrutinized under a microscope as a role model for children. Go figure.

Yeah, cause the little children, that's why Dynamite's Zorro doesn't have pistols. [lol]
I hope you're not serious.

[LetsRollKato]

I don't know...I find it far more interesting to see the character get out of scrapes with just a sword.

[Guicho]

I don't know...I find it far more interesting to see the character get out of scrapes with just a sword.

Well by Dynamite's own telling, the Zorro they're perpetuating is done-in by a gun, cause he supposedly wouldn't adapt to using one, or I don't know didn't know they existed?.
So big fail on their Zorro "getting out of scrapes with just a sword" scenario.

[LetsRollKato]

You're awfully fired up about this.

Is this a thinly-veiled attempt to get into a gun control debate?

Because it won't work.

;)

[Guicho]

You're awfully fired up about this.

Is this a thinly-veiled attempt to get into a gun control debate?

Because it won't work.

;)

Eww no that might be you trying to twist the discussion or argue for the sake of it.
Yeah it's the 70's , or Disney said so, or it's not PC now, go ahead argue it, I showed another awesome side . . ;)
http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/other/grand/6921b9f2277c7da37dc46b9e35942a74.gif

[positronic]

This is now the heavy pulp-steeped Dynamite in 2013 we're talking about. Yeah, cause the little children, that's why Dynamite's Zorro doesn't have pistols. [lol]
I hope you're not serious.

Why do you assume that Dynamite has complete freedom to do whatever they want to with the character? Don't forget the license owner has something to say about this. And don't say that because it was used in Zorro stories in the past, that means it's canon and fair game for current usage. I know for a fact that ERB Inc., for example, has edited original Tarzan stories for the sake of political correctness, and there are some 1930s Disney cartoons that they won't release for public consumption (hell, they won't even release The Song of the South). So don't assume that the reason Zorro doesn't carry a gun isn't because Zorro Productions Inc. prefers it that way.

Not saying it's true, I don't know one way or the other, but it's entirely possible. There's currently a Zorro CGI animated series in production, and I highly doubt he'll be carrying a gun in that. So yeah, the little children.

[positronic]

In fact, now that I look into this a little bit, it seems more and more plausible. Let's look at the list:



The New Adventures of Zorro - Filmation, 1981, 13 episodes
The Legend of Zorro - Mondo TV (Italy)/Toho Animation, 1992, 52 episodes
Zorro: The Animated Series - Warner Bros./Fred Wolf/Harvest Entertainment, 1997, 26 episodes
The Amazing Zorro - Nickelodeon/DIC Entertainment, 2002, (animated telefilm, 72 min.)
Zorro: Generation Z - BKN Entertainment, 2008, 26 episodes


So it would appear that the little children are buttering quite a lot of bread for Zorro Productions Inc. That the consumers of DE's comic book are not primarily children may make no difference here, since public perception is everything, and Zorro Productions may want to maintain a certain consistency in the character's depiction.

[LetsRollKato]

Eww no that might be you trying to twist the discussion or argue for the sake of it.
Yeah it's the 70's , or Disney said so, or it's not PC now, go ahead argue it, I showed another awesome side . . ;)
http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/other/grand/6921b9f2277c7da37dc46b9e35942a74.gif

I was teasing (hence the winky smiley thingy).

Or, perhaps, half-teasing.

And, since positronic mentioned them:

MAN, I wish ANY of those ZORRO animated series had been better. The Filmation one is the best out of all of them.

[positronic]

And, since positronic mentioned them:

MAN, I wish ANY of those ZORRO animated series had been better. The Filmation one is the best out of all of them.

I liked the Filmation series. As for the others, the Mondo/Toho thing was anime, and looked pretty typical (low-budget) for that time. Generation Z was to my mind sort of along the lines of Phantom 2040, just a wrongheaded attempt to update the character and make him "cool" to a generation who have no idea who he is (that said, it's possible, as I think Batman Beyond proved, but not that easy - not that I think kids had no idea who Batman is - and BB was not the first "future Batman" ever seen). Never saw the other two, but I plan on checking out the in-production CGI-animated series (Zorro The Chronicles) if it ever makes it to air in the U.S. Screen shots looked not too bad.

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