warriors of mars, completely confusing preview of confusion

[Ralok]

"excessively unusual interpretation of the thithers and hithers"? Well, only if you consider the dictionary definition of "hither" and "thither" excessively unusual. Frankly, I thought Marvel's Gullivar Jones strip got the visual interpretation of the Thithers right, but I must admit I read it before the actual novel, so I may be biased.

If Gullivar Jones influenced ERB (and there's no proof, although it's certainly possible), it's been pointed out by many that H.G. Wells' Eloi and Morlocks from THE TIME MACHINE may have influenced Edwin Arnold, and the similarities are certainly striking, which makes it harder to see the Hither people (Eloi) as ERB's Red Men, although apart from that, the Morlocks, Thither people, and Tharks all share a certain aggressive savagery and physical power. On the other hand, the Hither people are described as thin, gaunt, slender and willowy, dainty and light-- and "ashy grey in colour" (describing Hath's face) or is it white (Gullivar mentions "white foreheads")? So much so that the first person that Gullivar meets is ambiguous as to sexuality -- he at first takes "An" for a young boy, only to find out later she is a girl. Hard to imagine that ever being a problem with ERB's Red Men! But he has no such problem recognizing the Princess Heru's sex.

"They were the prettiest, daintiest folk ever eyes looked upon, well-formed and like to us as could be in the main, but slender and willowy, so dainty and light, both the men and the women, so pretty of cheek and hair, so mild of aspect, I felt, as I strode amongst them, I could have plucked them like flowers and bound them up in bunches with my belt. And yet somehow I liked them from the first minute; such a happy, careless, light-hearted race, again I say, never was seen before. There was not a stain of thought or care on a single one of those white foreheads that eddied round me under their peaked, blossom-like caps, the perpetual smile their faces wore never suffered rebuke anywhere; their very movements were graceful and slow, their laughter was low and musical, there was an odour of friendly, slothful happiness about them that made me admire whether I would or no."

Now, if that's not Wells' Eloi, I don't know what is. It's certainly not ERB's Red Men, though.

As far as Barsoom goes, I don't remember Burroughs ever hinting at interbreeding between the Red Men and the Green Men, so I would assume even less the case of interbreeding between Red Men and White Apes. Maybe one of Ras Thavas' crazy biological experiments in genetic engineering? In fact, maybe both the Hither and Thither folk are genetic engineering experiments, as it doesn't seem likely the Hithers could evolve naturally and survive in such an evolutionarily competitive ecosystem as Barsoom's.

It seems to me that if Barsoom can already support four different human races, plus Green Men, White Apes, Plant Men, and Rykors and Kaldanes, there ought to be room for a couple of Hither and Thither races as well without having to make them fit Burroughs' already established races.

Like I have pointed out before, there is one red martian individual that perfectly fits the description of the thither. The Jed of the city Ghasta

as for itnerbreeding with greens and white apes, barsoomian mythology claims that this is how therns and other races came about, but that is myth. But there are hybrids in the labyrinths of the therns! So there we have a possible origin for dynamites thithers!

Like I said, in the book the thithers are called "ape-men" in barsoomian context this should mean they are men who resemble barsoomian apes . . .. . . . so dynamite has done an incredibly clever thing here!

there are possible origins, excapees of the labyrinth, the valley of the lost souls, a little explored location, a semi fertile tundric valley serrounding the southern pole where people who didnt complete the pilgrimage on the river iss fled

this about that one for a second, an entirely unexplored region that is mentioned by name, that could certainly fit the description of the thithers homeland from the book, that is occupied by green and red men at the very least . . . possibly interbreeding . . .


So here is my theory on dynamite comics barsoomian thithers

they are descendents of green and red martians and they live in the tundric valley of the lost souls. They are uninhibited abominations who breed with whatever is available, both white apes, and red martian women! it has produced a society of hybrid monsters, an unusual race of ape-men!

that is my theory anyways, we are going to have to read the entire warriors of mars series to find out!

I havent been able to get my hands on the first issue yet even

[positronic]

Funny, on page 2 it's mentioned that Jones had "served the Republic with honor against the South and earned (his) rank" (which would seem to place the scene on Earth sometime shortly after the Civil War), yet on page 6, in Gullivar's apartment, he is shown with a copy of Percival Lowell's first book on MARS (which was published in 1895, some 30 years after the Civil War ended). That would make Gullivar Jones quite old indeed. Just picking nits.

[Ralok]

Funny, on page 2 it's mentioned that Jones had "served the Republic with honor against the South and earned (his) rank" (which would seem to place the scene on Earth sometime shortly after the Civil War), yet on page 6, in Gullivar's apartment, he is shown with a copy of Percival Lowell's first book on MARS (which was published in 1895, some 30 years after the Civil War ended). That would make Gullivar Jones quite old indeed. Just picking nits.

You bring up an excellent point, in the original book gullivar reading that book would make sense, there is no indication of him being a civil war soldier in the original book, and the book was implied to take place in a contemporary setting (about 1905?)

I would suggest that the civil war in dynamite comics universe continued for a much longer period! certainly any army with John Carter as a part of it would not give up so easily!

lets try and migrate this conversation to the thread Warriors of Mars (lets discuss it here)

to avoid all the mess I have created here with my idiocy

[ChastMastr]

You bring up an excellent point, in the original book gullivar reading that book would make sense, there is no indication of him being a civil war soldier in the original book, and the book was implied to take place in a contemporary setting (about 1905?)

I would suggest that the civil war in dynamite comics universe continued for a much longer period!

I would suggest that it's a minor artistic mistake, or even artistic license, that doesn't need a radical re-imagining of history to deal with.

[Ralok]

I would suggest that it's a minor artistic mistake, or even artistic license, that doesn't need a radical re-imagining of history to deal with.

I dont think it is radical to imagine some events going on slightly longer, and some events taking place slightly sooner

the book only needs to be a little older, and hte civil war to go on a little longer

a slight adjustment to world history, no biggie

[positronic]

Perhaps Gullivar is a well preserved 50-ish gentleman. Or maybe he's got a little of the same stuff that kept Captain Jack Carter young and spunky?

[Ralok]

Perhaps Gullivar is a well preserved 50-ish gentleman. Or maybe he's got a little of the same stuff that kept Captain Jack Carter young and spunky?

that I dont think I would like, it doesnt fit the nature of the character very well


making gullivar a carter clone is a mistake, Gullivar is a young man who has alot of genuine issues with his life and he has a really hard time doing the right thing. He has good morals, he has good understanding of things, and he genuinly tries and fails often.

he is essentially a hero, that hasn't learned to be a hero yet

[ChastMastr]

So does it say when Gullivar's first visit to Mars is actually set? I know he travels through space and time, but if this predates Dejah Thoris' birth then it would be before, say, the 1400s, but I don't know when.

Yes. Yes, I am that much of a chronology weenie.

Alas, I've looked over the issue several times now and I can't find any indication of when in the past Gullivar has arrived. Help?

[Ralok]

Alas, I've looked over the issue several times now and I can't find any indication of when in the past Gullivar has arrived. Help?

seriously?

http://geek-news.mtv.com/2011/12/14/...riors-of-mars/

according to this 1400 years before John Carter arrives

[ChastMastr]

Whoops! This was a different site than the one I'd seen before. Since Napton does not contradict them, I assume they have the date correct. Thank you!

Geek: Gullivar hits historical Barsoom about 1400 years before John Carter. What’s the era like?

Napton: Well, having gone back into the past with Fall of Barsoom, I had tackled some of this already in telling the story of the fall of the Orovar, the once dominant race on Mars. In this story, the setting early on is dictated by the Gullivar novel—we wanted to set up Gullivar and tell his story within the context of Barsoom. Some elements of Gullivar’s plot had to be shifted to tighten the connection to Barsoom—if I say anything more it will ruin the surprise, so we’ll see how all this plays with those purists out there [laughs]. I’ll say in advance that Alan Moore did the same thing in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen 2, he put Gullivar and Carter on the same red planet and had them meet, so if it works for Alan Moore, it works for me [laughs].