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Thread: Dejah Thoris & And the Green Men . . . Concerns

  1. #1
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    Default Dejah Thoris & And the Green Men . . . Concerns

    look . . . I was willing to put up with Dejah Thoris and the White Apes of mars, because it told a story that hadn't been told on ERBs barsoom before . . . it introduced new locations, and ideas . . .

    But . . . Dejah Thoris and the Green Men of Mars . . . is torture porn.

    http://www.dynamite.com/htmlfiles/vi...13020220800151

    You are showing a classic literary character, being tortured and personally violated . . . for kicks, and the way it is drawn seems to indicate you think we will be aroused by this . . . this is sickening, and horrible. It implies rape (which should only ever be carefully used, and never as "that thing that happens to women"), and is gross and horrid.

    This is sickening . . . and damn you, for taking away Dejah Thoris' chance to murder that sick f**king thark on the third preview page . . . you could have redeemed this story by having her systematically murder her torturers and oppressors, but you had to have her be saved . . . like a weak child, which she has never been in any version . . . not even in the white apes of mars.

    As well . . . you are diminishing the humanity of the Tharks . . .you should be showing the Tharks growing out of these habits, you could have made this any other horde (Torquas, or Thurd, for example . . . both introduced in public domain books) . . . but making it the Tharks . . . is contrary to Burroughs story . . . and it takes away your chance to explore the universe further by hyper-focusing on this horde of greens.

    . . .


    All that said . . . my recommendations to salvage this book, make the preview-pages seen . . . a dream-sequence, show her imagining the horrors the greens will inflict upon her, and imagining John Carter coming to rescue her. It is more effective to imply horror, than it is to outright show it . . . second, change these Green Martians affiliation from Thark, to Thurd . . . . Not much is known about Thurd but it is implied they are sort of the boogie-men of the green martians. . . .

    The first change is not so simple, but the second one would be rather simple to accomplish (erasing the word thark, and replacing it with Thurd . . . adding a few new lines of dialogue)

    So far . . . you are really going in the wrong direction with this book, despite that . . . I am going to buy it, and I will read it, and I will buy the tradepaperback . . . I love dynamite comics, and John Carter . . . but this is going to be a blemish on your John Carter record . . . keep in mind, implied-rape and assassins-centric plots literally DESTROYED Marvels 1980s series . . . you are doing both right now (assassin plot in main Dejah Thoris series, implied rape in this spin-off).

    I almost recommend putting Green Men of Mars on hold until the assassin-story in the main Dejah Thoris book goes on hold and you can put some distance between these two archs with some lore-expanding filler. Remember if you are reminding people of GOOD John Carter comics . . .keep it up, but you are reminding me of the BAD comics in the past . . . so slow down a bit . .

    and my final recommendation . . . has nothing to do with the story, but when this is released in Tradepaperback form, can you put Vol. 2 on the side instead of 1? since this is more or less a sequal to Dejah Thoris and the White Apes of Mars?
    Last edited by Ralok; 02-04-2013 at 05:08 PM.
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  2. #2
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    .......

    So anyway, I've recently been reading a ton of Warlord of Mars from Dynamite and absolutely love this story so far and am looking forward to anything related to John Carter. Unlike some people, I have no weird or strange requests. Thank you.
    Chadster!

    Currently reading: All Dynamite pulp titles, all Valiant titles.

  3. #3

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    since there is no text or captions etc in the preview pages, you have no idea what is exactly going on.
    DE Pull List: The Black Bat, Damsels, Damsels: Mermaids, Dark Shadows, Dejah Thoris & The Green Men Of Mars, Grimm, Lady Rawhide, Lords of Mars, Masks, Miss Fury, The Shadow, The Spider, Warlord Of Mars: Dejah Thoris, Vamiprella: Southern Comfort

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott M Davis View Post
    since there is no text or captions etc in the preview pages, you have no idea what is exactly going on.
    Don't worry about Ralok, he always gets weird when he analyzes the WoM series for some reason. It's like he wants it to be 1000% perfect to the novels and will accept nothing less than that, he also comes up with strange demands too that make absolutely no sense. Much like the ones mentioned in his original post in this thread.

    Just odd.
    Hoping Dynamite keeps pushing PULP!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by manga4life View Post
    Don't worry about Ralok, he always gets weird when he analyzes the WoM series for some reason. It's like he wants it to be 1000% perfect to the novels and will accept nothing less than that, he also comes up with strange demands too that make absolutely no sense. Much like the ones mentioned in his original post in this thread.

    Just odd.
    thats exactly right ^ _ ^

    I WANT it to be 1000% perfect . . . and I know full-well I am not going to get what I want . . . I will criticize the flaws to my full ability regardless!

    I dont think my demands are that strange, and they are only requests

    I dont want to see Dejah Thoris being tortured and violated, she is a classic literary character and deserves some respect. Having it be a dream sequence is a good way to show her fears, and the implications of what may happen if she doesnt escape the situation . . .

    And the request that these greens be of the "Thurd" horde rather than "Thark" is simply because I think it owuld all-around benefit the comic, it avoids dragging the Tharks into the ground. After all, they may have been savage but they were enlightened compared to warhoon in the original books . . . and these actions being undertaken by the tharks in this book are far more inline with warhoon thinking . . .

    so why Thurd? because I have never seen them used in a story before :I they are one of the most neglected of ERBs creations.

    As for the whole talk about delaying this book . . . .Its just that the current Dejah Thoris comics are reminding me a lot of Marvels last story-archs in their 1980's comic series, certainly dynamite is doing better WITHOUT A DOUBT . . . but I dont think it is ever a good idea to remind me of bad comis

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott M Davis View Post
    since there is no text or captions etc in the preview pages, you have no idea what is exactly going on.
    no I dont . . . all I see is Dejah being tortured, and licked by a giant fat-thark (and it irks me off that she doesnt get to kill him)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chadster View Post
    .......

    So anyway, I've recently been reading a ton of Warlord of Mars from Dynamite and absolutely love this story so far and am looking forward to anything related to John Carter. Unlike some people, I have no weird or strange requests. Thank you.
    Yeah same here basically . . . I do have a few requests, but they are not that strange :I and are mostly because I deeply fear these comics being cancelled.
    Last edited by comixfan1980; 02-04-2013 at 07:31 PM.
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  6. #6
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    I can see why this particular thing could offend some, the whole submission issue and whatnot, it's a bit kinkier than other facets of sexuality. I don't mind it here personally though. And well, in my opinion good art should be able to offend to some degree, it could be boring if it's all safe and risk free.

    That said, in general I'd like Dynamite's books to be more sexy, not less. These books all marketed with sexuality in mind and with sexy covers, for predominantly adult audiences, should be able to include sexuality more in their mix. It's a key part of art, and my personal pet peeve with Dynamite, especially lacking in Vampirella and Red Sonja I'd say.

    On another note, why is it okay for fictional characters to cut each other's heads off, but when one licks another one it's over the line? I feel like some are holding comics to a much stricter standard than say film and TV. I'd like to see comics have less self-censorship personally. Though a villain doing what he does here instead of killing everybody like usual can be a taboo topic, so I do get where you're coming from. Though to me, a villain in a story doing heinous things is perfectly acceptable storytelling.

    Just goes to show, everyone has different taste and personal lines.
    Last edited by Psionic_Lemmy; 02-05-2013 at 01:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psionic_Lemmy View Post
    I can see why this particular thing could offend some, the whole submission issue and whatnot, it's a bit kinkier than other facets of sexuality.
    This isn't really submission per se--this is, whether feared and shown in her imagination, or something which happens, or is about to happen, rape. It's not the same thing as safe, sane and consensual submission, nor is it the same as erotica which contains elements of fictional non-consent. It's an adventure story, and this is the peril she's put in.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psionic_Lemmy View Post
    I can see why this particular thing could offend some, the whole submission issue and whatnot, it's a bit kinkier than other facets of sexuality. I don't mind it here personally though. And well, in my opinion good art should be able to offend to some degree, it could be boring if it's all safe and risk free.

    That said, in general I'd like Dynamite's books to be more sexy, not less. These books all marketed with sexuality in mind and with sexy covers, for predominantly adult audiences, should be able to include sexuality more in their mix. It's a key part of art, and my personal pet peeve with Dynamite, especially lacking in Vampirella and Red Sonja I'd say.

    On another note, why is it okay for fictional characters to cut each other's heads off, but when one licks another one it's over the line? I feel like some are holding comics to a much stricter standard than say film and TV. I'd like to see comics have less self-censorship personally. Though a villain doing what he does here instead of killing everybody like usual can be a taboo topic, so I do get where you're coming from. Though to me, a villain in a story doing heinous things is perfectly acceptable storytelling.

    Just goes to show, everyone has different taste and personal lines.
    That is the problem . . . . this isnt a porno-comic, and this isnt just people being playful . . . I understand full well some of these aspects of sexuality and the human mind. But this is neither the time or place for this, this is a classic literary character they are dealing iwth, not some 5 cent hooker for them to rape and torture.

    And no, sexuality is not a key part in art, it is something that poor artists who are incapable of inducing emotion do to appeal to base human instincts, because they suck and they know it :I

    As for your . . .idiotic question, I have to ask another question back "have you ever been personally violated?" There is a huge difference between "villain being granted the mercy of a quick death" and "protagonist being raped by a monster" . . . and the fact is that it is acceptable story telling, it is not acceptable to think that I should get aroused by it, or to do it to a classic literary character.

    The problem here is that rape is just being used as a plot-device . . . do you think that the traumatic events here will ever be mentioned again? do you think that she will undergo psychological torment?

    now, its just being used as a plot-point to get her from point-a to point-b . . . and has nothing to do with the the characters growth we ahve been seeing throughout the comics and the books, and actually flies in the face of everything that Dejah Thoris has been through before this. This is the woman who murdered the Colossus, traveled the stars, and survived everything that the universe threw at her.

    and now she needs to be rescued from rape, because rape is just that thing that happens to women.
    Last edited by Ralok; 02-05-2013 at 11:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChastMastr View Post
    This isn't really submission per se--this is, whether feared and shown in her imagination, or something which happens, or is about to happen, rape. It's not the same thing as safe, sane and consensual submission, nor is it the same as erotica which contains elements of fictional non-consent. It's an adventure story, and this is the peril she's put in.
    which is part of the reason . . . why I want these Green Martians to be changed to members of the Horde of Thurd . . .

    I dont like to imagine that characters with any sort of kinship to the noble Tars Tarkas could be capable of this, I like to imagine that the Tharks over time became noble and gentle people under the guidance of Tars Tarkas.
    Let Disney know, that you want to go Back To Barsoom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralok View Post
    I dont like to imagine that characters with any sort of kinship to the noble Tars Tarkas could be capable of this, I like to imagine that the Tharks over time became noble and gentle people under the guidance of Tars Tarkas.
    On the other hand, we humans have kinship with everyone from Mother Theresa to Charles Manson, but I see your point...

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