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On Trainwrecks, Realism, and the Picking of Nits...

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  • On Trainwrecks, Realism, and the Picking of Nits...

    I've looked at this over and over and have come to the conclusion that the Lone Ranger shot the lever to make the train switch tracks. In my opinion, the train crashed. Even if it were just the back part, a wreck like that would derail and stop the train. Others were sure to have been injured or killed in a crash of that magnitude. It's a failure in the story that the Ranger wasn't concerned for others on the train.
    I find it hard to believe that Bart was able to be as physical as he was with a knife wound to the shoulder and a bullet wound in his hand. I think the telegram is proof that Bart did survive. I think it very odd that he would give the Ranger his guns and that the Ranger would accept them. I also think it was a flaw to let Bart go free.
    Also, Brett Matthews really needs a lesson in U.S. geography. The trip between the northwestern most part of Texas and Laramie, Wyo., would take about 12 hours by car (if you wore an astronaut diaper ), but several weeks by horse. To do it in two days would mean violating some laws of physics and nature.
    As for the meaning of Kemo Sabe, there are about as many translations as there are spellings of the word. The most common are Trusty Scout, Trusty Friend, Trusted Friend and now Faithful Friend.

  • #2
    Train Crash

    I took another look at the panel. No, it's obvious that it's *only* the last car and wood-carrier that derails due to the Ranger's bullet, not the whole train. i'm willing to assume he could see whether or not people were in the last car (caboose?) but it's pretty obvious the rest of the train does not jump the track (or at least, does not fly off the track). and who knows? if we were some teenaged kid chasing his family's murderer, we might not think about the biggest possible consequences either.

    no reason to believe the trip from wyoming only took 2 days. remember, he was chasing Bart the whole way and probably only arrived at linda's house a couple of days after Bart before turning right around and continuing the chase. it's not likely they were gonna meet going back and forth, after all.
    wonder if tonto was faking for awhile to give the kid time to get back?
    Cindy

    Previous Quote:
    _____________________
    I've looked at this over and over and have come to the conclusion that the Lone Ranger shot the lever to make the train switch tracks. In my opinion, the train crashed. Even if it were just the back part, a wreck like that would derail and stop the train. Others were sure to have been injured or killed in a crash of that magnitude. It's a failure in the story that the Ranger wasn't concerned for others on the train.
    I find it hard to believe that Bart was able to be as physical as he was with a knife wound to the shoulder and a bullet wound in his hand. I think the telegram is proof that Bart did survive. I think it very odd that he would give the Ranger his guns and that the Ranger would accept them. I also think it was a flaw to let Bart go free.
    Also, Brett Matthews really needs a lesson in U.S. geography. The trip between the northwestern most part of Texas and Laramie, Wyo., would take about 12 hours by car (if you wore an astronaut diaper ), but several weeks by horse. To do it in two days would mean violating some laws of physics and nature.

    Comment


    • #3
      Kemo Sabay

      Heck, i wasn't going to go thru the trouble, but i re-read some of Dave Holland's book "From out of the past: A pictorial history of the lone ranger." (And please no one tell my husband i haven't put it on ebay after i planned to like 6 months ago. {sigh})

      on the word 'kemo sabay.' here's what it says:

      Story Number Three is irrefutable.
      you know that boys camp that [series writer/director who hired Striker] james jewell's father-in-law ran on mullet lake [northern michigan]? Guess what it's name was. "Kee-mo Sahbee." that's even the way they spelled it when it was named that back in 1915, 18 years before The Lone Ranger went on the air. and that's where james jewell got 'kemo sabe." he was the one to put it into the scrpts (where it was spelled "kemo sabay," incidentally.)
      Brace Beemer liked to tell people it meant "faithful friend" but Jewell insisted that it only meant 'trusty scout.' "that's the only thing it has ever meant," he told Rothel, "or ever will mean." Period, by God. (Holland. 1987. p. 155.)

      quick-someone tell the comic writers!
      CindyR
      Crossposted on ezboard

      Comment


      • #4
        Bart's release

        hey Cindy see my post on issue 6 elsewhere on the board. I think John "let him go" to use as bait to get to Cavendish. He knows that Butch will have to tie up all loose ends which includes Bart and that will give clues to the motives and whereabouts of Cavendish. I think Bart will eventually see bars but his involvement illustrates much of the Creed and serves to prompt Tonto toward John's (and maybe his own) belief system. Note that Bart's world view is totally opposite than John's especially the colorblind Creed but its obvious that John and Linda's treatment of him is something completely foreign to him. And also to be shown mercy in combat from a white man no less is something that might change him hence the guns. He did give Butch the money back so at least his priorities are shifting abit. Time and hopefully a one shot will tell the rest of his story. I also like the fact that Tonto left the knife (his and Matthews' symbolic killing talisman) with Bart essentially making his own choice and choosing life while putting the same choice in Bart's hands. As for said jail time what's a dead man to do make a citizens arrest in the 1870's or have the Indian bring him in (which would likely get them both hanged). Such is the peril of too much reality.

        Comment


        • #5
          Bart's arrest

          Hmmmm. I suppose they could be using bart as bait, tho i don't see it yet. especially since bart pretty much divorced himself from butch and disappered.

          one other possibility: i can't find a shred of evidence against bart anywhere. no one saw him kill anyone, he didn't leave smoking identifiable guns at the scene of the crime, and there's no one whe would testify (like butch) as to his involvement. turning him in wouldn't have done any good anyway.
          not that it looks like he's ever going to be able to walk again much less do violence....
          Cindy

          Comment


          • #6
            Bart's entire conversation with Tonto and then with Lone Ranger are to the effect of him expecting to die. especially his conversation with the ranger. "I'm ready." is a fatalistic approach, and he had expected to have a showdown before he left the ranch.

            Looking at his beat up body, I honestly do not see him surviving. Not only that but didn't they say in the pod cast that issue #6 was bringing the Black Bart chapter to a close? That to me says Black Bart had made arrangements to send that telegram before heading out to the showdown. Either that or Tonto or Ranger sent that telegram to make BC think that Bart was still alive.

            If Black Bart did live, then, again, I will have very little respect for how this story turned out. We're talking about a cold blooded murderer who seems to be able to track anyone down anywhere - a person that dangerous should've died or been turned into the authorities. His leg is drawn as if it's broken in two (the way it's twisted with the metal I see his leg doing a 60 degree angle below the knee, as well as being twisted where it can't twist), and he's out in the middle of nowhere. For him to survive that wreck, profuse bleeding, and make it to send the telegram in what appears to be a short amount of time out in the middle of the wilderness would be outrageously ridiculous.

            Bart's gotta be dead or had to have prepared that gram before the duel.
            Last edited by Kevin; 06-14-2007, 05:01 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CindyR
              Heck, i wasn't going to go thru the trouble, but i re-read some of Dave Holland's book "From out of the past: A pictorial history of the lone ranger." (And please no one tell my husband i haven't put it on ebay after i planned to like 6 months ago. {sigh})

              on the word 'kemo sabay.' here's what it says:

              Story Number Three is irrefutable.
              you know that boys camp that [series writer/director who hired Striker] james jewell's father-in-law ran on mullet lake [northern michigan]? Guess what it's name was. "Kee-mo Sahbee." that's even the way they spelled it when it was named that back in 1915, 18 years before The Lone Ranger went on the air. and that's where james jewell got 'kemo sabe." he was the one to put it into the scrpts (where it was spelled "kemo sabay," incidentally.)
              Brace Beemer liked to tell people it meant "faithful friend" but Jewell insisted that it only meant 'trusty scout.' "that's the only thing it has ever meant," he told Rothel, "or ever will mean." Period, by God. (Holland. 1987. p. 155.)

              quick-someone tell the comic writers!
              CindyR
              Crossposted on ezboard

              Yes, please. I'd like just a tad more accuracy on this subject.

              The only things I'd change in this book really are:

              1. Give us a time notation so we can see how much time passes between panels, ok?

              2. Kemo-Sabe = trusty scout.

              Comment


              • #8
                outrageousley ridiculous

                OK I guess arrows fired from self bows breaking guns is plausable. there are a lot of inaccuracies and "ridiculous" stuff going on in LR. Which is fine for me because I'm just as inclined to believe superman flies because he wears a red cape that simple or at least it shouldn't be scientifically or aerodynamically explained. its all fiction. If you can't believe that a man fully concious can survive the train wreck there is no reason to believe that John could survive the ambush even with Tonto's help.

                Comment


                • #9
                  innacuracies

                  Hey, tonto.
                  a steel-tipped longbow can pierce body armor; i have no trouble believing it can hit a gun in the right spot and stress-fracture it. Feel better?

                  but i'm afraid our buddy kevin is going to have to be disappointed. the CHAPTER of Bart may be closed, but Bart himself is in a hospital somewhere in traction dictating telegrams. Good example of John surviving possibly worse injuries.
                  I agree with Kevin about the time passage not being clear in this story, tho; just not sure how to build it into the segue without using up precious story space.
                  Cindy

                  Originally posted by tonto
                  OK I guess arrows fired from self bows breaking guns is plausable. there are a lot of inaccuracies and "ridiculous" stuff going on in LR. Which is fine for me because I'm just as inclined to believe superman flies because he wears a red cape that simple or at least it shouldn't be scientifically or aerodynamically explained. its all fiction. If you can't believe that a man fully concious can survive the train wreck there is no reason to believe that John could survive the ambush even with Tonto's help.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    An English longbow no doubt, but a Southwestern most likely Comanche/Kiowa (if Tonto's from Texas) one piece short bow I doubt it at long range and that barrel has the benefit of 19 century industrial steelwork. The time thing does seem a bit "because i say so writing" but look at those handwritten "telegrams". All this just seems to be minor artist/writer communications stuff, both Matthews and Carriello would have to be steadfast researchers to get everything correct. I just wonder about the term Half-breed where in any version of the LR myth has tonto been anything other than full-blood. No blue eyes, fair hair or nothin you'd think he was Quanah Parker or sumptin.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      tonto

                      i'm still pulling for the broken gun to be not much of a stretch. especially since tonto had access to any bow he could make or buy, was a big, powerful man with one *heck* of a draw, and using steel (instead of stone) tipped arrows. but it's okay if you don't think it plausable; i do.

                      as to tonto, I am *assuming* that they will be keeping tonto's potawatomie ethnicity if only on one side. that was established in the series and since the potawatomie ended up in first kansas then oklahoma (with a small group following the kickapoo south to mexico), quite believable. of course, this mature tonto could have traveled with the wind and ended up anywhere he chose, especially if he has no tribal ties, being a half-breed and all.

                      as to that: yes, the original tonto in both the first book and the earliest radio program was a half-breed. (that was changed later.) that background of tonto's being a half-breed is fair game for the writer to use.
                      Cindy

                      Originally posted by tonto
                      An English longbow no doubt, but a Southwestern most likely Comanche/Kiowa (if Tonto's from Texas) one piece short bow I doubt it at long range and that barrel has the benefit of 19 century industrial steelwork. The time thing does seem a bit "because i say so writing" but look at those handwritten "telegrams". All this just seems to be minor artist/writer communications stuff, both Matthews and Carriello would have to be steadfast researchers to get everything correct. I just wonder about the term Half-breed where in any version of the LR myth has tonto been anything other than full-blood. No blue eyes, fair hair or nothin you'd think he was Quanah Parker or sumptin.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tonto
                        OK I guess arrows fired from self bows breaking guns is plausable. there are a lot of inaccuracies and "ridiculous" stuff going on in LR. Which is fine for me because I'm just as inclined to believe superman flies because he wears a red cape that simple or at least it shouldn't be scientifically or aerodynamically explained. its all fiction. If you can't believe that a man fully concious can survive the train wreck there is no reason to believe that John could survive the ambush even with Tonto's help.
                        His leg was broken in at least two places, this alone would prevent him from crawling out of the desert before being eaten alive.

                        Tonto at least stopped the Lone Ranger from dying of dehydration, I don't see that for Black Bart.

                        Besides, bows are pretty strong. and if the wood on Bart's Gun's stock wasn't taken care of, it could easily splinter.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Bart's survival

                          [cindy raises one brow] and you don't think the dozen or so men working on that train would have *noticed the loss of their caboose and extra fuel (and probably skipping the rails of at least a few more cars) and come back to investigate and get the victim to safety? and even if the train crew was blind, deaf, and dumb, i'm assuming the railroad company would have had someone there within the day to investigate the loss of a couple of cars. Sheesh! Bart would have had to beat the help off with a stick within a few hours.
                          [friendly gibing in your direction] Cindy

                          Originally posted by Kevin
                          His leg was broken in at least two places, this alone would prevent him from crawling out of the desert before being eaten alive.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Cindy, we're talking about an 1870s railroad - pre-safety regulations. No, they would not have noticed right away nor would they have cared if they did notice right away. Engineers have one thing on their mind. Chug Chug Chug to the destination.

                            Not only that, but IF that train had even BEGUN to stop the moment the caboose had derailed, it probably would've taken them 3 miles. I'm not a train historian, but I do not believe that straight air brakes were in surplus in 1870. They had only JUST been invented in 1869. In fact, according to this one website it wasn't until 1876 that All Southern Pacific and Central Pacific passenger cars converted to straight air brakes. The previous air brakes having been relatively weak.

                            http://www.sdrm.org/history/timeline/


                            If the train had wanted to stop quicker than 3 miles, it'd have to slam on the breaks, which would increase the chances of those railroad tracks to snakehead (a very nasty phenomenon).


                            That was also a passenger train, no way in hell would they have had the equipment or inclination to investigate the wreck. The best thing they would've and could've done was gone to their next stop and make a telegraph about the accident.

                            I seriously doubt that help would've arrived soon -- I'm guessing about 2 days ride? Maybe a day if a REPAIR locomotive had been sent, and only then if there was a town within spitting distance. If we're talking about reality here, I'd expect it to take 3 days to over a week for them to get to the wreck.

                            Having said that, do you honestly think they would be prepared for a medical emergency? Even after an HOUR black bart could've lost enough blood just to die right there. He'd have to also survive the trip back to civilization BEFORE a doctor could work on him!


                            If Black Bart is alive, I want to see him minus one leg in the very least.

                            Train Travel, and investigating large train wrecks was SLOW back then. VERY VERY Slow. There were NO emergency crews. Sometimes it'd take days to get to a widely known catastrophe. You've gotta watch some wild west tech, I'm not making this stuff up.

                            Black Bart should NOT survive that wreck. Not only that but if a crew did arrive to save him, I'd be very disappointed in the Lone Ranger if he didn't warn them first about the Murderer Black Bart. If anything, the rescue people would've arrived with freshly forged irons to clamp him down.


                            Edit: you know on further evaluation I wouldn't be surprised if it'd take that train going at a speed sufficient enough to toss the caboose that far into the air -- we're talking maybe 10+ miles to come to a complete stop.
                            Last edited by Kevin; 06-19-2007, 02:08 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              trains

                              kevin, perhaps you've forgotten that TOP speed on a train of that era was about 35mph; fully laden, sustained speed probably 25 on a good day? (info, interestingly, came from the 'true west moment' series on the western channel, with bob boze bell.) with air *or mechanical brakes (which it most certainly would have had), it was not about to ghost along for miles and miles after having been jolted by dragging derailed cars. (i realize the last two would have snapped loose but it didn't look like the others flew free tho they probably left the track.) [interesting train link-i read it all.]
                              and i still contend that only a pack of idiots of a crew wouldn't have noticed they were dragging (and lost) derailed cars! that doesn't make sense. i believe they would most certainly have investigated--anyone would have including you and me; again, that only makes sense, and i believe that was the source of Bart's survival of his injuries. (after all, we're only *assuming internal injuries, no one said he had any. all we saw was a broken leg and a bullet hole in his hand. the knife wound was now two days old and obviously not so serious having missed anything vital according to bart.) it would be a good touch if bart did lose his leg and i hope justice comes to him later, tho i guess he's out of the story for now. maybe he's in a wheelchair?
                              anyway, it's not that hard for a full train crew to bundle a man onto the first on-track car and leave.
                              this said, my main continued belief for his survival is the telegram being sent some indeterminate time later, which i will never believe was sent before the battle due to Bart's assuredness in himself and his own expectations of winning the fight. his attitude was made quite clear all the way thru the story.
                              i still think the ranger and tonto probably expected bart to die of his wounds and so left him to it. wonder if bart kept tonto's knife?
                              am also looking forward to the ranger finding out who butch is (his function, i mean, not his name which he now knows). matthews in one interview or another said it was the equivalent of finding out your family was killed by the president. that should be interesting.
                              cindy

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