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On Trainwrecks, Realism, and the Picking of Nits...

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Well your post does bring up a point, Tommy I'm not being nasty or attacking you or dynamite in any way, but I believe it's a serious point :

    Do real world physics no longer have a place in heroes such as Lone Ranger or Zorro? Is it now unacceptable to have any kind of hero comic that is soundly grounded in real world physics?

    I'm being dead serious on this topic. I"m not attacking anybody here or being nasty and I’m not attacking the writers or this comic. I think this topic is extremely pertinent to these characters and as far as I can tell it has not be discussed to date.

    While I can understand physics being constantly bent and broken for the likes of X-Men or Superman. The Lone Ranger, The Shadow, Green Hornet, Zorro, are all characters of which real life physics plays a critical role in their existence. They are the policemen who get things done when others can't, but they don't get them done because of fantastical superhero physics, they get them done through real life physics. To me, their struggle with real life physics not only grounds the characters and their strife, but it also makes their heroic feats that much more heroic because they are doing it in a world that has the same physics humanity knows and struggles with every single day.

    In the X-Men universe, it's nothing to walk on the moon.

    In our universe, or in the universe of the Wild Wild West, a concept of walking on the moon brings up hurdles of physics/logistics that must be overcome through brilliance, strength, and perseverance.

    To me, real life physics me needs to play a critical part in these types of mortal characters. Regardless of it being a comic, I need Zorro to deal with a broken leg if he has a broken leg. I don’t want to see him grimacing and “working his way through it” while taking down an army of the Alcade’s corrupt lancers.

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  • Tommy
    replied


    People, CHILL.


    As Mikey said:

    Originally posted by MadMikeyD
    Not meaning any disrespect here people, but we are trying to argue real world logic into a comic book.
    Exactly. Silly, isn't it? Please move on to the next discussion point.


    Tommy.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Cindy, if you want to call me rude for saying your wrong, that's your porogative. But, you're wrong about how they handled those trains. Trains took a long time to come to a stop. Trains were on tight schedules with near speed psychotic engineers. Trains like this were not service vehicles. There were no real search and rescue parties that serviced train wrecks like they did today.

    The only thing on which I'll agree with you is that the Train scene seemed poorly portrayed. Everyone seems to have said that in all their online reviews so I didn't think it that necessary to point it out to this degree. The comic was still a great comic, I loved it, and I still love it and I can't wait for issue #7.

    I'm sorry, Cindy, but that's just the way it was.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    agreeing to disagree

    [frostily spoken] And YOU, Kevin, need to go read up on how not to be rude on the internet.
    CindyR


    Originally posted by Kevin
    Cindy, the problem here is you're not understanding anything about trains and how they were run. That's not something to "agree to disagree" about. That's something on which you actually need to do a bit more research.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    There's a difference to me between performing a Heroic Feat (such as shooting the train switch), and completely re-writing reality (such as this entire train idea and black bart's survival).

    I do kinda hope that the Lone Ranger of the future spins more towards realism than Marvel or DC Comics Fantasy (super skrulls causing Civil War and Superboy Prime punching an invisible wall). I'm enjoying it so far, but if it turns into what Red Sonja's becoming I'm gonna get turned off real fast.

    Likewise, I hope Zorro retains the original concept of realism. That's one reason why I love Alex Toth's and Don McGregor's zorro incarnations so much, they WOULD have Heroic feats, but they'd keep it grounded in realism. A train would not flip a caboose and a several thousand ton freight car 30 feet in the air while the rest remains perfectly intact. If someone broke a leg in two (such as the injuries Black Bart suffered), there's a good chance they'll die, even if it's from infection.

    Zorro or LR can make a heroic shot from 200 yards to slice the rope of a hangman's noose, I'll buy that and it's in line with their heroic feats. But I don't want to see Zorro getting his back broken and walking around the next day, the Lone Ranger jumping from a moving train and only having one hair put out of place, or having a villain get his neck snapped in two then coming back to life.


    Comic book or not some real life physics has to follow these characters.

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  • MadMikeyD
    replied
    Not meaning any disrespect here people, but we are trying to argue real world logic into a comic book. Real world logic would say there is no way the Lone Ranger could even shoot that switch with the weapons of the day. And if he did make what would have to have been a very lucky shot, more than just the last two cars would have derailed. Here is how I see the bottom line: Bart's death was left open to interpretation, leaving the creative team the option of someday bringing him back if they felt the need. Maybe he died out there, maybe he was found. It was left open. I happen to believe he did survive and we will see him in a wheelchair eventually. Although I can see the other arguement as well. If he is dead, I believe he probably used Tonto's knife to commit suicide, rather than die a slow, torturous death from starvation, dehydration, internal bleeding, or whatever. Only Brett Matthews knows for sure, and I'll bet he doesn't give a definitive answer so that he still has the option of changing his mind later.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Cindy, the problem here is you're not understanding anything about trains and how they were run. That's not something to "agree to disagree" about. That's something on which you actually need to do a bit more research.

    One episode of Wild West Tech will blow your theories out of the water.

    The only possible excuse for Bart's survival after this is if the artist really didn't know how to draw the scene he was told to draw or if likewise the writer didn't know much about trains or what not.

    I'm more inclined to believe Bart is dead.
    Last edited by Kevin; 06-19-2007, 02:10 PM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    bart, et al

    obviously we shall have to respectfully agree to disagree both on trains and on Bart. as i mentioned, the telegram alone proves bart is not dead. how he survives is pretty immaterial to me tho the discussion was interesting if not really germain.
    best,
    Cindy

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by CindyR
    kevin, perhaps you've forgotten that TOP speed on a train of that era was about 35mph; fully laden, sustained speed probably 25 on a good day?
    I'm sorry cindy, but did you miss the part of my post where I said:

    you know on further evaluation I wouldn't be surprised if it'd take that train going at a speed sufficient enough to toss the caboose that far into the air -- we're talking maybe 10+ miles to come to a complete stop.
    25-35 Mph is NOT a sufficient enough speed to toss that caboose in the air. But even if that train was going 25-35 mph that train would NOT be stoppin anytime soon even if they pulled the emergency cord (which hadn't have been invented yet to my knowledge).


    Not only that but do you actually think that a train caring THOUSANDS of TONS can stop in less than 3 miles going 35 miles per hour?

    (info, interestingly, came from the 'true west moment' series on the western channel, with bob boze bell.) with air *or mechanical brakes (which it most certainly would have had), it was not about to ghost along for miles and miles after having been jolted by dragging derailed cars.
    Cindy, I'm reading the book right now. NONE of the other cars outside the caboose and that giant several thousand ton freight car had flipped which is what would've happened if they derailed. NONE. The train is also carrying freight and passengers. (something which seems odd is the artist drew freight and passenger cars inbetween each other). There seems to be a lot wrong with this train.


    (i realize the last two would have snapped loose but it didn't look like the others flew free tho they probably left the track.) [interesting train link-i read it all. and i still contend that only a pack of idiots of a crew wouldn't have noticed they were dragging (and lost) derailed cars! that doesn't make sense.

    lol we're talking about an era where they used the same stretch of track going west as going east. How much money are you willing to stake on your bet cause I'm a little poor right now and could use extra cash. These people were paid top dollar to go from point A to point B as fast as possible.


    i believe they would most certainly have investigated--
    Yeah, after a week had gone by.


    anyone would have including you and me; again, that only makes sense, and i believe that was the source of Bart's survival of his injuries.
    They would not have been able to stop the train and back it up. You're misunderstanding how long it took those trains to come to a stop.


    (after all, we're only *assuming internal injuries, no one said he had any. all we saw was a broken leg and a bullet hole in his hand.
    That leg is drawn as broken in two, it juts out at two different angles, and that means arteries are slashed. Outside of the artist having 0 perspective, that leg is a mortal injury.


    it would be a good touch if bart did lose his leg and i hope justice comes to him later, tho i guess he's out of the story for now. maybe he's in a wheelchair?
    anyway, it's not that hard for a full train crew to bundle a man onto the first on-track car and leave.
    LOL yes it is! Cindy, it'd take a long, a very very very very long time for that train to come to a halt. It would then take a very very very very long time and a TON of coal to start that train back up and back it up far enough so they wouldn't have to walk 10 miles to check out the wreck.

    That train was carrying freight with passengers, (cars inbetween one another which is odd), and it had a piss poor breaking system. EVERY TIME a Engineer breaks a train it means life and death. They have to jump from one car to another in order to tighten each break on each car to bring the train to a halt. They are NOT emergency crew ready. NO WAY IN HELL would that train have stopped, backed up, and investigated the missing cars. NONE.

    These people are NOT trained for emergencies.

    Black Bart should be dead. period. Nobody would've reached him for several days and he would not be able to climb out of that mess.
    Last edited by Kevin; 06-19-2007, 11:36 AM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    trains

    kevin, perhaps you've forgotten that TOP speed on a train of that era was about 35mph; fully laden, sustained speed probably 25 on a good day? (info, interestingly, came from the 'true west moment' series on the western channel, with bob boze bell.) with air *or mechanical brakes (which it most certainly would have had), it was not about to ghost along for miles and miles after having been jolted by dragging derailed cars. (i realize the last two would have snapped loose but it didn't look like the others flew free tho they probably left the track.) [interesting train link-i read it all.]
    and i still contend that only a pack of idiots of a crew wouldn't have noticed they were dragging (and lost) derailed cars! that doesn't make sense. i believe they would most certainly have investigated--anyone would have including you and me; again, that only makes sense, and i believe that was the source of Bart's survival of his injuries. (after all, we're only *assuming internal injuries, no one said he had any. all we saw was a broken leg and a bullet hole in his hand. the knife wound was now two days old and obviously not so serious having missed anything vital according to bart.) it would be a good touch if bart did lose his leg and i hope justice comes to him later, tho i guess he's out of the story for now. maybe he's in a wheelchair?
    anyway, it's not that hard for a full train crew to bundle a man onto the first on-track car and leave.
    this said, my main continued belief for his survival is the telegram being sent some indeterminate time later, which i will never believe was sent before the battle due to Bart's assuredness in himself and his own expectations of winning the fight. his attitude was made quite clear all the way thru the story.
    i still think the ranger and tonto probably expected bart to die of his wounds and so left him to it. wonder if bart kept tonto's knife?
    am also looking forward to the ranger finding out who butch is (his function, i mean, not his name which he now knows). matthews in one interview or another said it was the equivalent of finding out your family was killed by the president. that should be interesting.
    cindy

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Cindy, we're talking about an 1870s railroad - pre-safety regulations. No, they would not have noticed right away nor would they have cared if they did notice right away. Engineers have one thing on their mind. Chug Chug Chug to the destination.

    Not only that, but IF that train had even BEGUN to stop the moment the caboose had derailed, it probably would've taken them 3 miles. I'm not a train historian, but I do not believe that straight air brakes were in surplus in 1870. They had only JUST been invented in 1869. In fact, according to this one website it wasn't until 1876 that All Southern Pacific and Central Pacific passenger cars converted to straight air brakes. The previous air brakes having been relatively weak.

    http://www.sdrm.org/history/timeline/


    If the train had wanted to stop quicker than 3 miles, it'd have to slam on the breaks, which would increase the chances of those railroad tracks to snakehead (a very nasty phenomenon).


    That was also a passenger train, no way in hell would they have had the equipment or inclination to investigate the wreck. The best thing they would've and could've done was gone to their next stop and make a telegraph about the accident.

    I seriously doubt that help would've arrived soon -- I'm guessing about 2 days ride? Maybe a day if a REPAIR locomotive had been sent, and only then if there was a town within spitting distance. If we're talking about reality here, I'd expect it to take 3 days to over a week for them to get to the wreck.

    Having said that, do you honestly think they would be prepared for a medical emergency? Even after an HOUR black bart could've lost enough blood just to die right there. He'd have to also survive the trip back to civilization BEFORE a doctor could work on him!


    If Black Bart is alive, I want to see him minus one leg in the very least.

    Train Travel, and investigating large train wrecks was SLOW back then. VERY VERY Slow. There were NO emergency crews. Sometimes it'd take days to get to a widely known catastrophe. You've gotta watch some wild west tech, I'm not making this stuff up.

    Black Bart should NOT survive that wreck. Not only that but if a crew did arrive to save him, I'd be very disappointed in the Lone Ranger if he didn't warn them first about the Murderer Black Bart. If anything, the rescue people would've arrived with freshly forged irons to clamp him down.


    Edit: you know on further evaluation I wouldn't be surprised if it'd take that train going at a speed sufficient enough to toss the caboose that far into the air -- we're talking maybe 10+ miles to come to a complete stop.
    Last edited by Kevin; 06-19-2007, 01:08 AM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Bart's survival

    [cindy raises one brow] and you don't think the dozen or so men working on that train would have *noticed the loss of their caboose and extra fuel (and probably skipping the rails of at least a few more cars) and come back to investigate and get the victim to safety? and even if the train crew was blind, deaf, and dumb, i'm assuming the railroad company would have had someone there within the day to investigate the loss of a couple of cars. Sheesh! Bart would have had to beat the help off with a stick within a few hours.
    [friendly gibing in your direction] Cindy

    Originally posted by Kevin
    His leg was broken in at least two places, this alone would prevent him from crawling out of the desert before being eaten alive.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by tonto
    OK I guess arrows fired from self bows breaking guns is plausable. there are a lot of inaccuracies and "ridiculous" stuff going on in LR. Which is fine for me because I'm just as inclined to believe superman flies because he wears a red cape that simple or at least it shouldn't be scientifically or aerodynamically explained. its all fiction. If you can't believe that a man fully concious can survive the train wreck there is no reason to believe that John could survive the ambush even with Tonto's help.
    His leg was broken in at least two places, this alone would prevent him from crawling out of the desert before being eaten alive.

    Tonto at least stopped the Lone Ranger from dying of dehydration, I don't see that for Black Bart.

    Besides, bows are pretty strong. and if the wood on Bart's Gun's stock wasn't taken care of, it could easily splinter.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    tonto

    i'm still pulling for the broken gun to be not much of a stretch. especially since tonto had access to any bow he could make or buy, was a big, powerful man with one *heck* of a draw, and using steel (instead of stone) tipped arrows. but it's okay if you don't think it plausable; i do.

    as to tonto, I am *assuming* that they will be keeping tonto's potawatomie ethnicity if only on one side. that was established in the series and since the potawatomie ended up in first kansas then oklahoma (with a small group following the kickapoo south to mexico), quite believable. of course, this mature tonto could have traveled with the wind and ended up anywhere he chose, especially if he has no tribal ties, being a half-breed and all.

    as to that: yes, the original tonto in both the first book and the earliest radio program was a half-breed. (that was changed later.) that background of tonto's being a half-breed is fair game for the writer to use.
    Cindy

    Originally posted by tonto
    An English longbow no doubt, but a Southwestern most likely Comanche/Kiowa (if Tonto's from Texas) one piece short bow I doubt it at long range and that barrel has the benefit of 19 century industrial steelwork. The time thing does seem a bit "because i say so writing" but look at those handwritten "telegrams". All this just seems to be minor artist/writer communications stuff, both Matthews and Carriello would have to be steadfast researchers to get everything correct. I just wonder about the term Half-breed where in any version of the LR myth has tonto been anything other than full-blood. No blue eyes, fair hair or nothin you'd think he was Quanah Parker or sumptin.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    An English longbow no doubt, but a Southwestern most likely Comanche/Kiowa (if Tonto's from Texas) one piece short bow I doubt it at long range and that barrel has the benefit of 19 century industrial steelwork. The time thing does seem a bit "because i say so writing" but look at those handwritten "telegrams". All this just seems to be minor artist/writer communications stuff, both Matthews and Carriello would have to be steadfast researchers to get everything correct. I just wonder about the term Half-breed where in any version of the LR myth has tonto been anything other than full-blood. No blue eyes, fair hair or nothin you'd think he was Quanah Parker or sumptin.

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