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  • #16
    Originally posted by pulphero View Post
    Well, not to his face, I'm sure.
    But whatever... slut, manwhore... you're just splitting hairs. Geez, people get so invested in their "preferred terminologies".

    If you want the diplomatic phraseology, how about... "He/she is a judgment-impaired recreational breeder*".
    (And please, DO read that "/" out loud as "AND-or"... I want this to be as non-disinclusive as possible.)

    I think that should work universally for just about anyone, regardless of sex, gender, orientation, or what have you.

    Hey, might be a role model for some, I'm not casting any stones. But let's at least be completely honest about the ingredients label.

    [* Please don't lambaste me for a lack of fidelity to exacting definitions of animal husbandry. I really couldn't find a universal word to fit the description: "A person who engages the aid of another person for the express purpose of achieving sexual orgasm, in such spacial proximity to each other so as to involve the possible exchange or contact of bodily fluids of a procreational nature, regardless of intent"]
    She could have gone for something like ferocious in bed, an unbridled lover, all kinds of things that don't have the pejorative meaning that wanton has. It was a poor choice of wording. If it was violence she meant to go with the cruelty in the sentence it was an equally poor choice when written with what came before on the page and in context of Simone's over worked joke about Sonja wanting to get laid through the last arc. The dual meanings simply don't work together, unless the derogatory meaning is what she was going for. The word looks old fashioned and fits as a descriptor for fantasy but its meaning is quite clear.

    Looking at that sentence again, it's crude rather than cruel. 'She is wanton and she is crude.' I had thought it was 'She is wanton and she is cruel.', which would have at least allowed an ambiguous interpretation of wanton but, no. That doesn't leave the violent meaning for wanton all that open to inference from the passage.

    Please, a new writer.
    Last edited by Ajax; 01-06-2015, 06:45 AM.

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    • #17
      Eric Trautmann, the guy should never have been replaced, he understood the character and world unlike any other writer on Sonja (talking about the main series, not the one shots or mini's). Failing that, get Peter V Brett back, he can spin a good yarn and even had "gets drunk and sings on tables" Sonja in Blue.

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      • #18
        http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/WANTON?s=t

        There are several different shades of meaning to "wanton", not all of which are sexual. In a less specific sense, it just means "wild, free, unrestrained". Having said that, well... in common usage, it's an archaic/romanticized way of saying "slut" (or if you prefer, "frisky" or "a libertine") when applied to a woman. Whether that's a BAD thing is a cultural determination, but it's fair to say that, based on what we do know of the Hyborian Age, it's not the negativism it would be in the modern world.

        In proximity to the word "crude" however, it's not seeming like THIS shade of meaning of "wanton" is particularly complimentary.
        Last edited by pulphero; 01-06-2015, 02:57 PM.

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        • #19
          Libertine, there's a better choice thanks to gendered double standards, of course, but would have served much better than wanton which can bring in those unfortunate associations. However a Hyborian era individual might feel, being fictional and all, the readers of the book aren't going to feel the same. I got the impression of Howard's Red Sonya that she could be seen as a libertine herself, certainly a free wheeling character who wasn't going to be at anyone's beck and call, though. Writing for an audience in the early 30's, the possibility is vague, but it's pretty fair to infer Sonya of Rogatino was no stranger to a lover or two. I can appreciate not wanting Sonja to be sexless, but Simone is ham-handed about it.

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          • #20
            I don't think people would call Conan a manwhore or whatever, to his face or not. The fact is that the number of "sexual conquests" Conan makes isn't treated the same as if he were a woman. That's the reason I take issue with calling Sonja a "drunken slut" above.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ajax View Post
              Libertine, there's a better choice thanks to gendered double standards, of course, but would have served much better than wanton which can bring in those unfortunate associations.
              We can agree more on that, then.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                I don't think people would call Conan a manwhore or whatever, to his face or not. The fact is that the number of "sexual conquests" Conan makes isn't treated the same as if he were a woman. That's the reason I take issue with calling Sonja a "drunken slut" above.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming
                Double posted

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                  I don't think people would call Conan a manwhore or whatever, to his face or not. The fact is that the number of "sexual conquests" Conan makes isn't treated the same as if he were a woman. That's the reason I take issue with calling Sonja a "drunken slut" above.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming
                  Words mean things. That's what Simone described her as, atrocious writer that she is.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                    Words mean things. That's what Simone described her as, atrocious writer that she is.
                    Did Simone (excellent writer as she is) actually use the words "drunken slut," or were they in the mouth of a bad-guy or jerkish character talking about her? Context makes a lot of difference there.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                      We can agree more on that, then.
                      I expect we agree on nothing.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                        Did Simone (excellent writer as she is) actually use the words "drunken slut," or were they in the mouth of a bad-guy or jerkish character talking about her? Context makes a lot of difference there.
                        Yes, she did, right in her description of Sonja on the page.

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                        • #27
                          The problem I have with the current series of Red Sonja, is the simple retconning out of existence of the oath. So they want to get away from the whole 'If Sonja gets beaten in a fight it means she will be raped' argument then fine, but it could have been handled better than it has been.

                          1. Don't mention it, it was never a factor in the original appearance of Red, so could be just ignored.

                          2. She can lay with whoever she wants, but just has high standards having sworn an oath to not love anyone not worthy of her....this being worthy of her could mean any number of things, not just who can knock her on her arse.

                          But instead, they threw the oath out of the window because they were worried about backlash about rape and what not, fine, not a problem, but in its place we now have a grumpy stinking slut who mentions in nearly every other page she appears in that she wants someone between her legs, even going so far as proposing such to two cannibals.... And everyone seems to think this is the best comic version of Sonja going?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                            Yes, she did, right in her description of Sonja on the page.
                            Um... in issue #14, we see her described as "a stinking slut of a swordswoman" by an inhumanly evil wizard who's just force-fed an entire tavern of people horrific lamprey-like worms with teeth.

                            Then, the narration says about her, "Sonja is many things. She is a carouser. She is a drinker of all manner of spirits. She is wanton, and she is crude at times. But above all. Sonja is a HUNTER." And then it goes on a bit about her doing some hunting.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                              Um... in issue #14, we see her described as "a stinking slut of a swordswoman" by an inhumanly evil wizard who's just force-fed an entire tavern of people horrific lamprey-like worms with teeth.

                              Then, the narration says about her, "Sonja is many things. [B]She is a carouser. She is a drinker of all manner of spirits. She is wanton, and she is crude at times[/B]. But above all. Sonja is a HUNTER." And then it goes on a bit about her doing some hunting.
                              That means drunken slut. We've been through this already, Dorothy. You don't want to look behind the curtain at the egregiously bad writer.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                                That means drunken slut. We've been through this already, Dorothy. You don't want to look behind the curtain at the egregiously bad writer.

                                As much as I'd rather not expand on this conversation, I just read the reference material and in no way does it even insinuate such an idea. Merging the baddie's insult of her with being described as a 'carouser' " Definition: To drink large amounts of alcohol, especially in boisterous merrymaking (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Carouser)" , 'drinker' "Definition: see carouser', or 'hunter' (hope I don't need to explain that one) is really reaching and implying one's own opinion that people that drink are sluts. That opinion is far fetched. D&D is satanic I hear . Let's move on.

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