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The new politically correct Vamprilla and Dejah Thoris

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  • #61
    G'day,

    True Pulphero and there's another important and practical reason. Publishers want eye catching art so people pick up the book.


    Originally posted by pulphero View Post
    If it's a brand new character, the creators are deciding who she is, and how she's going to appear to the world. They can make her a character who is exactly what she appears to be "What you see is what you get", or design her as a "Don't judge a book by its cover" type of character. That's up to the creators. Maybe she dresses minimally and provocatively to distract her male opponents, or maybe she's from a different culture where attitudes about sexuality and body images are completely different than 21st Century standards of global culture. Or maybe she's choosing designs and colors that are symbolic or represent something, if the creators feel like her costume should show that she represents something - an alien culture, a patriotic motif, colors that reflect her powers - say she has powers of light and heat, then some combination of warm colors like red, orange and yellow would be appropriate. Blue and white if she has freezing powers. Dark colors if she operates by night and wants to blend into the shadows. Bright primary colors if she wants to immediately draw the attention of everyone. Etc.

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    • #62
      Here. I asked. Nothing to panic about now. Everything will be fine.

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      • #63
        Fine. And when will Gail Simone be finished with her? I'm ready to move on to the next bit.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by pulphero View Post
          Fine. And when will Gail Simone be finished with her? I'm ready to move on to the next bit.
          No idea, but I hope you will like the stuff coming out, whether now or later. And of course there will likely always be miniseries by other people you can enjoy.

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          • #65
            Narrative direction from Simone, that says to me the new writer and editors could not come up with their own ideas. Not the stuff that inspires confidence in the new team.

            Bad 90s hair on Sonja, generic action girl Vampirella, and Lynn Collin's outfit from John Carter, nothing here says buy me.
            Last edited by Ajax; 10-31-2015, 09:56 PM.

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            • #66
              Normally I would buy anything Burroughs and at least consider Vampirella but I'll be giving them a miss. If they turn up to be good I might pick them up as trades. However considering the crap Deejah/Irene Adler story in Sword of Sorrows I expect to be holding on to my money.






              Originally posted by Ajax View Post
              Narrative direction from Simone, that says to me the new writer and editors could not come up with their own ideas. Not the stuff that inspires confidence in the new team.

              Bad 90s hair on Sonja, generic action girl Vampirella, and Lynn Collin's outfit from John Carter, nothing here says buy me.

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              • #67
                Erm..no one is panicking about Sonja's look, as long as they got rid of the shaved head (and Simone), I'm happy.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by ralphuniverse View Post
                  Spandax? That she likes tight fitting outfits? That she requires cloths with lots of free movement which don't get in the way? Most generic superheros wear tight fitting cloths. It depends on the general story context.
                  Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                  If it's a brand new character, the creators are deciding who she is, and how she's going to appear to the world. They can make her a character who is exactly what she appears to be "What you see is what you get", or design her as a "Don't judge a book by its cover" type of character. That's up to the creators. Maybe she dresses minimally and provocatively to distract her male opponents, or maybe she's from a different culture where attitudes about sexuality and body images are completely different than 21st Century standards of global culture. Or maybe she's choosing designs and colors that are symbolic or represent something, if the creators feel like her costume should show that she represents something - an alien culture, a patriotic motif, colors that reflect her powers - say she has powers of light and heat, then some combination of warm colors like red, orange and yellow would be appropriate. Blue and white if she has freezing powers. Dark colors if she operates by night and wants to blend into the shadows. Bright primary colors if she wants to immediately draw the attention of everyone. Etc.
                  I wasn't really asking about requiring tight-fitting clothes or the color scheme. If an outfit is making a statement, what statement does a thong make? Seriously, is the strategy "to distract her male opponents" reasonable or sensible?

                  Look, I am not someone who says all characters should be de-sexualized or even de-wankable (if that's a word). I think there is plenty of room in the marketplace for Lady Death and Tarot and so forth. And I don't have as much a problem with Dejah Thoris since nudity, thongs, etc. are equally true for both genders. But let's not kid ourselves that traditional female outfits, such as Vampirella and Red Sonja and Lady Death, were created not to make a statement about character but rather to use the male libido to buy comics.

                  I understand the problems of traditional attire and continuity. I personally think Pantha is an under-appreciated character that has the potential for fascinating stories, but her outfit was created forty years ago for reasons of (let's be honest) sexual arousal to get males to pick the comic up, so writing modern stories for her while grappling with her history is extremely problematic. I'm not sure there is a perfect answer, but I am interested to see what these new teams are going to try with Vampirella. Maybe it'll be horrible, there's certainly plenty of precedent for character/costume changes that were gag-inducingly awful. But I do understand the motivation and will keep my fingers crossed when these stories come out.

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                  • #69
                    G'day,

                    What statement does the artist want to make? That's the real question.


                    Originally posted by bobrobertson View Post
                    I wasn't really asking about requiring tight-fitting clothes or the color scheme. If an outfit is making a statement, what statement does a thong make? Seriously, is the strategy "to distract her male opponents" reasonable or sensible?

                    .

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by ralphuniverse View Post
                      What statement does the artist want to make? That's the real question.
                      Well, yeah, but the statement that seems most obvious to me is, "Look at this almost-naked person, buy this comic and see more pictures like this!" That's the statement of the Sport Illustrated swimsuit cover, the statement of a truck magazine that prominently features (for no apparent reason) a bikini-clad woman on the front, and so forth. Is there more of a statement than that?

                      Thing is, this statement is intended for heterosexual males and is exclusionary to other demographics, like women; I don't think this exclusion is necessarily intentional or consciously creating a "boys only" environment, but I do think that's the net result. Like I said, I'm not saying we should get rid of all comics that fall into this category, there's a place for all sorts of different comics, but let's be honest about the message/statement that is being sent by a superheroine in a thong.
                      Last edited by bobrobertson; 11-02-2015, 05:45 PM.

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                      • #71
                        One could call that a strawman argument, too.

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                        • #72
                          I'm sure that originally the point of Vampy's costume was to show skin and attract male readers. But now it's become as much of a statement of who she is (or more) as a marketing ploy. Dangerous, sexy and not afraid to be who she is.
                          Always remember, Murphy was an optimist
                          Munchkin 1, 2, 4, 7 Super Munchkin 1&2, Munchkin Bites 1&2, Munchkin Fu, Star Munchkin Deluxe and Star 2
                          http://ghornet.deviantart.com/

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                          • #73
                            This actually makes me feel worse as she ignores the elephant in the room that everyone else here clearly sees as an agenda-driven rebranding that totally hasn't happened in other publishing houses in recent years.
                            Last edited by Leadpoison; 11-03-2015, 02:27 PM.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Leadpoison View Post
                              that everyone else here clearly sees as
                              Obviously, we don't all agree on this, or if we do agree, on whether it's a bad thing.

                              Some might argue that there was a rather unhealthy, unquestioned agenda before, involving what's known as the "male gaze," which was off-putting to a wide range of potential readers, and without that agenda being assumed, the characters can be developed and explored in other ways.

                              What agenda are you referring to, specifically?

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                                Obviously, we don't all agree on this, or if we do agree, on whether it's a bad thing.

                                Some might argue that there was a rather unhealthy, unquestioned agenda before, involving what's known as the "male gaze," which was off-putting to a wide range of potential readers, and without that agenda being assumed, the characters can be developed and explored in other ways.

                                What agenda are you referring to, specifically?
                                At risk of walking straight into an ideological trap, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The script read out in louder, amplified form through internet media over recent years can be attributed to radicalized 3rd-wave feminist theory. As I type this I sense the taboo of even questioning identity politics. The consequence of even criticizing opposing views leads to outright claims of objectification and sexism by the simple enjoyment of fantasy art and storytelling. Art by artists Simone herself used to champion. Arbiters of what's "off-putting" now decide what is and isn't offensive while policing art through outrage. Dynamite was the last bastion of refuge from this demonization and that's why you're actually sensing a pushback this time. We've had enough of being painted into a corner, and convicted of the crime of being misogynists for the simple act liking entertainment of the type Dynamite has been publishing for the past 10 years.
                                Last edited by Leadpoison; 11-03-2015, 05:28 PM.

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