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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by pulphero View Post
    Still trying to wrap my brain around the part where the tribe takes a look around the Lost Land and someone says, "Hey, THIS looks like a good to move to. I can see potential...!"
    Well, they might not have a choice. They might wind up stuck there--which needn't even be shown during the actual Turok series, just as a premise for appearances of a descendent of Turok later in one of the crossovers or something. Turok could have zillions of adventures there in his own series in the pre-Columbian past, and then at some point (decades or even centuries later--"pre-Columbian" covers a very long time, LOL) in between then and the present day for a team-up with Dr. Spektor, or the future with the others, Turok's tribe (or a remnant of it) winds up in the Lost Land. Heck, that way, if one wanted, one could have classic-style Turok and Andar in the past, and perhaps a descendent or just someone with the same name (or taking the name Turok as a title?) as a more modern dinosaur hunter (a la some of the other re-imaginings over the years) in the present.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I am expecting this--all of this just spun out of a possibility I think would be neat, not something I'm actively campaigning for. I have no idea what Dynamite will do with Turok at all.

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  • pulphero
    replied
    Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
    And that's where speculative/fantastic fiction comes in. We can imagine all sorts of cool things (including, as the original Turok stories had, dinosaurs and all sorts of species--including tribal human-types--coexisting in whatever time-lost/dimensional/hollow-earth/etc. place it was. Something Pellucidar-ish?). And, yes, to the poster above, centuries after Turok's time, something analogous to Wakanda might not be a bad thing.
    Still trying to wrap my brain around the part where the tribe takes a look around the Lost Land and someone says, "Hey, THIS looks like a good to move to. I can see potential...!"

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    PS: Technically it would be less like Kandor and more like Rokyn.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by pulphero View Post
    Undoubtedly the world would be a far different place now, but it's hard to imagine exactly in what way.
    And that's where speculative/fantastic fiction comes in. We can imagine all sorts of cool things (including, as the original Turok stories had, dinosaurs and all sorts of species--including tribal human-types--coexisting in whatever time-lost/dimensional/hollow-earth/etc. place it was. Something Pellucidar-ish?). And, yes, to the poster above, centuries after Turok's time, something analogous to Wakanda might not be a bad thing.

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  • pulphero
    replied
    Originally posted by comixfan1980 View Post
    So, should I start a Gold Key forum on the boards soon, or should I wait a bit? You guys decide.
    Honestly, I would wait at least until the first issues of all 4 announced titles are out. Then you can move any related threads at one time.

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  • comixfan1980
    replied
    So, should I start a Gold Key forum on the boards soon, or should I wait a bit? You guys decide.

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  • pulphero
    replied
    Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
    Re smallpox, I'm talking about the deliberate spreading of the disease to kill the natives by the Europeans--not anything unintended. It's not relevant that Turok's tribe would know about smallpox any more than it would be relevant for a Jewish community in Germany in the 1800s to know about the future Nazi gas chambers, but again, if they could survive somehow, that would be cool. And since we know about the Native American genocide now, in fiction, having a tribe survive--in its own land, without being a conquered remnant with centuries of being second- or third-class citizens to overcome--would be really cool. And since there is going to be something apparently showing stories involving the Lost Land and stories about a fictional present/future Earth, then, again, I think that having Turok's pre-Columbian tribe able to thrive and grow and not be subjected to those horrors would be a very cool story to read. Not really sure what else to add here.

    Surely I am not the only one, when reading stories that involve pre-Columbian Native American civilizations, for whom awareness of their whole world's future destruction is almost inescapable? It's like reading adventures of people from vanished Krypton: No matter how cool the world is, or their adventures are, or how wonderful the civilization shown is, you know the planet's going to explode X number of years later. And since, in fiction, we can at least imagine better things than we have in reality, and the concept of Turok and the Lost Land lends itself to travel to another world--and we know we're going to see the future of all of this in the other Gold Key titles--well, then, why the hell not have something good happen to his tribe, rather than them all dying or dealing with all the other crap all the other real-world tribes had happen in real life? (I think they did that with Arak's tribe, the Quontauka, and established that they had stayed safe in a secret homeland until the 1940s when they sent Flying Fox to join the Young All-Stars.)
    The Lost Land as a sort of "Bottle City of Kandor" for Turok's people?

    It's just that the Lost Land is a world of dinosaurs in which humans were never meant to exist, despite the many movies and books in which humans and dinosaurs are inaccurately depicted as cohabiting the same time period. Humans did not evolve naturally as part of that ecosystem. Either the dinosaurs slowly kill off the tribe through attrition, or the tribe somehow manages to slowly kill off the dinosaurs and conquer that world to make it safe for human habitation. While Native American cultures typically believed in integrating and peacefully coexisting with the natural world, I don't think that's possible in the Lost Land. It's an eat-or-be-eaten, highly competitive world of survival of the fittest. If Turok's tribe do survive and thrive and grow there, it's only by eventually eradicating the dinosaur population, at least all of the truly dangerous predators, and the rest become farm animals. So then the Lost Land becomes a time-pocket where Turok's tribe survived extinction, but not the dinosaurs. Even though that may take many decades, surely the Lost Land of Solar's, Mighty Samson's, or Magnus' time would be significantly changed from the Lost Land that Turok and his tribe first entered. Some future descendant of Turok will have run out of dinosaurs to hunt. Humans change the world around them to make it more habitable for humans; it's what we do. Europeans changed the Americas to make them more habitable for Europeans, according to their perspective.

    Now that you mention it, it's very difficult to envision what the world would be like today without that clash of cultures. Would it be a better world? Perhaps better from the perspective of peoples of Amerind ancestry. But who can truly judge? Not trying to softpedal the genocidal aspect here, but -- it happened. Undoubtedly the world would be a far different place now, but it's hard to imagine exactly in what way.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
    Re smallpox, I'm talking about the deliberate spreading of the disease to kill the natives by the Europeans--not anything unintended. It's not relevant that Turok's tribe would know about smallpox any more than it would be relevant for a Jewish community in Germany in the 1800s to know about the future Nazi gas chambers, but again, if they could survive somehow, that would be cool. And since we know about the Native American genocide now, in fiction, having a tribe survive--in its own land, without being a conquered remnant with centuries of being second- or third-class citizens to overcome--would be really cool. And since there is going to be something apparently showing stories involving the Lost Land and stories about a fictional present/future Earth, then, again, I think that having Turok's pre-Columbian tribe able to thrive and grow and not be subjected to those horrors would be a very cool story to read. Not really sure what else to add here.

    Surely I am not the only one, when reading stories that involve pre-Columbian Native American civilizations, for whom awareness of their whole world's future destruction is almost inescapable? It's like reading adventures of people from vanished Krypton: No matter how cool the world is, or their adventures are, or how wonderful the civilization shown is, you know the planet's going to explode X number of years later. And since, in fiction, we can at least imagine better things than we have in reality, and the concept of Turok and the Lost Land lends itself to travel to another world--and we know we're going to see the future of all of this in the other Gold Key titles--well, then, why the hell not have something good happen to his tribe, rather than them all dying or dealing with all the other crap all the other real-world tribes had happen in real life? (I think they did that with Arak's tribe, the Quontauka, and established that they had stayed safe in a secret homeland until the 1940s when they sent Flying Fox to join the Young All-Stars.)
    So you want Turoks tribe to be the Wakanda of the GKU.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re smallpox, I'm talking about the deliberate spreading of the disease to kill the natives by the Europeans--not anything unintended. It's not relevant that Turok's tribe would know about smallpox any more than it would be relevant for a Jewish community in Germany in the 1800s to know about the future Nazi gas chambers, but again, if they could survive somehow, that would be cool. And since we know about the Native American genocide now, in fiction, having a tribe survive--in its own land, without being a conquered remnant with centuries of being second- or third-class citizens to overcome--would be really cool. And since there is going to be something apparently showing stories involving the Lost Land and stories about a fictional present/future Earth, then, again, I think that having Turok's pre-Columbian tribe able to thrive and grow and not be subjected to those horrors would be a very cool story to read. Not really sure what else to add here.

    Surely I am not the only one, when reading stories that involve pre-Columbian Native American civilizations, for whom awareness of their whole world's future destruction is almost inescapable? It's like reading adventures of people from vanished Krypton: No matter how cool the world is, or their adventures are, or how wonderful the civilization shown is, you know the planet's going to explode X number of years later. And since, in fiction, we can at least imagine better things than we have in reality, and the concept of Turok and the Lost Land lends itself to travel to another world--and we know we're going to see the future of all of this in the other Gold Key titles--well, then, why the hell not have something good happen to his tribe, rather than them all dying or dealing with all the other crap all the other real-world tribes had happen in real life? (I think they did that with Arak's tribe, the Quontauka, and established that they had stayed safe in a secret homeland until the 1940s when they sent Flying Fox to join the Young All-Stars.)

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    http://www.newsarama.com/19735-mark-...y-revival.html
    Doctor Spektor baby!

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  • pulphero
    replied
    Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
    Future genocide. Yes, they wouldn't know about it, but I think they'd deal better with the perils of the Lost Land than what the real Native Americans had to deal with when the Europeans came. Dinosaurs don't try to infect you with smallpox.
    Pretty sure the tribe would have no concept of what smallpox is, but how do we really know what diseases or infections dinosaurs might carry that might be transmittable to humans? Most viruses begin in the animal population, especially birds - and we all know how closely dinosaurs are related to birds. Or maybe they're like Komodo Dragons, their mucus festering with virulent bacteria that will infect the slightest wound.

    Turok's tribe doesn't know the Europeans are coming, and even if they did, while they would appear strange to them, at least they are recognizably human. Then again, once they did arrive, it wasn't with guns blazing in an obvious attempt to wipe them out (that only happened later). On the other hand, dinosaurs are pretty obviously dangerous monsters on first sight to them; no need for political analysis of their motives. Even IF they knew, somehow (tribal shaman's vision of the future?) of the ultimate fate of Native Americans after colonization, I think most in the tribe would prefer taking their chances with the Europeans. At least the Indians had numerical superiority at first. If they moved to the Lost Land, the dinosaurs would outnumber them. The situation would seem to be a lot more dire for humans than it was in even the days of cave bears, sabretooth cats and wooly mammoths. Realistically, how long can a small tribe armed only with spears, arrows and tomahawks last in a world overrun by megapredators? A few decades, at best, if that? If they were able to deal with those problems effectively and still thrive, then they shouldn't have any problems dealing with Europeans.

    Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
    A Brigadoon-like world would be even better; his tribe could live there and develop in their own way, with their own civilization showing up in some future era -- not necessarily have the same Turok meet the other Gold Key characters, but maybe a descendant from the world of the Lost Land.
    Well, we know Turok survives in that world because he's the hero, the protagonist, the main character. Presumably he's the fittest for survival amongst his tribe - that's why he's the "Dinosaur Hunter", otherwise the title character of the book would be some other Indian hero. But there's really no need for his tribe to be there, in fact, they're much better off, at least in the short term (and nobody makes immediate life-or-death choices based on how it might affect future generations unborn) right where they are. Sucks for Turok if he gets stuck there and can never return to his tribe, but the hero's burden is heavy and all that.

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  • Guest's Avatar
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    Originally posted by pulphero View Post
    Well, the point here is, what is the tribe "escaping" from?
    Future genocide. Yes, they wouldn't know about it, but I think they'd deal better with the perils of the Lost Land than what the real Native Americans had to deal with when the Europeans came. Dinosaurs don't try to infect you with smallpox.

    It may be that the Lost Land is some sort of chrono-phasing pocket anomaly that can appear in various different time eras temporarily, fading in and out, Brigadoon-like. But even if that's the case, there no need for Turok's entire tribe to be living there for Turok to have an occasional crossover with the other Gold Key characters.
    A Brigadoon-like world would be even better; his tribe could live there and develop in their own way, with their own civilization showing up in some future era -- not necessarily have the same Turok meet the other Gold Key characters, but maybe a descendant from the world of the Lost Land.

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  • pulphero
    replied
    Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
    That's precisely what I mean, yes, though if Turok's tribe escapes permanently to the Lost Land, then Earth could still be the same world as the other characters'.
    Well, the point here is, what is the tribe "escaping" from? If dinosaurs are escaping from the Lost Land to attack the tribe, why would they move the entire tribe to the Lost Land? Of course there's no way to for the tribe to know their world will one day be invaded by European colonizers who will eventually wipe out whole tribes and cultures of Native Americans. It would seem like the Lost Land would be no place to move an entire village with families, women and children. In their world, they may have to contend with some bears, wolves, the occasional mountain lion or buffalo stampede, as opposed to being constantly beset by dozens of species of large carnivorous dinosaurs, from packs of man-sized velociraptors to 3000-pound T. Rex, who are all very very hungry. Even the larger herbivores like triceratops and stegosaurus are dangerous due to their sheer bulk and defensive armor. That can only ultimately lead to a very UNhappy ending for Turok's tribe.

    In the original series, I think the whole point of the Lost Land was that Turok and Andar were LOST and couldn't find their way out and back to their tribe. They didn't stay there by choice. You're also theorizing under the assumption that the Lost Land may be a sort of dimensional pocket that coexists in all time periods, but we don't necessarily know that to be the case here, either. It would be a little weird to me if the Lost Land exists as a permanent fixture in the world of Solar/Spektor, Mighty Samson and Magnus as well - it makes the Turok series less unique. It may be that the Lost Land is some sort of chrono-phasing pocket anomaly that can appear in various different time eras temporarily, fading in and out, Brigadoon-like. But even if that's the case, there no need for Turok's entire tribe to be living there for Turok to have an occasional crossover with the other Gold Key characters.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by pulphero View Post
    Not sure what you mean by "happy ending" (but presumably nothing to do with Native American massage parlors... ) Like, maybe Turok's world turns out to be some alternate timeline where Europeans never colonized the Americas, and subsequently decimated its native peoples and cultures? But then it could hardly be part of the same universe as Solar, Magnus, and Dr. Spektor... ?
    That's precisely what I mean, yes, though if Turok's tribe escapes permanently to the Lost Land, then Earth could still be the same world as the other characters'.

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  • pulphero
    replied
    Originally posted by rasx View Post
    http://www.newsarama.com/19719-dynam...-barbiere.html
    A nice article about the new Solar series.
    I found it amusing that Solar is being referred to as a "pulp science" hero and the interviewer refers to "the pulp roots of the character". It usually doesn't bother me to see radio, movie serial, newspaper comic strip, and Golden Age comic book characters referred to as "pulp" as shorthand for anything conceived by any form of entertainment media in the 1920s/30s/40s or even 50s, but this is proof if any were needed that "pulp" has now become a meaningless buzz-word. Doctor Solar arrived on the scene nearly a decade after the death of the pulps. I guess the next thing we'll see is stuff like Bruce Lee and 1970s blaxploitation movies being referred to as "pulp" (who knows, maybe it's already happened somewhere and I just missed it). You don't really even know what a pulp is, do you, Mr. Barbiere? He certainly can't have read any, if he thinks Solar in any way resembles a character from the pulps. I guess that makes the X-Men "pulp science" heroes too (they first appeared 2 years after Dr. Solar). I know I can at least find the term "mutant" in some pulp sci-fi stories.

    Other than that small digression, I'm looking forward to reading the series.

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