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  • If and when the time comes for some sort of official announcement, you can bet that you won't be hearing the dirty word "reboot" bandied about by anyone in an official capacity, either. No, I would expect them to put the most positive face on it that corporate-speak will allow.

    Perhaps something like...

    "We're relaunching our print and digital media lines to achieve better synergy and market penetration across our various media lines. We hope to create more opportunities for market growth by providing new consumers with easier access points, and strengthen the Marvel brand across all our product lines. We're excited about the new potential and possibilities we'll open up with this initiative."

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    • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
      Apologies for needling you, Chast.
      Thank you. Being intellectually honest is one of the things which is most important to me.

      How early did you see the signs, and what do you consider those were?
      It wasn't so much signs as the track record--but I thought it would be at least a few more years. You can see my "before" and "after" posts here: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

      I didn't specifically expect a "total" reboot, but I've seen a pattern of at least partial reboots something like every seven years or so on average. I'm sure we'll get something different (whether line-wide reboot or something like Zero Hour or ... God only knows, really), but from the current crop of people running the asylum at DC, I do not have faith it will be good if New 52 is any example. At the moment I'm only expecting positive change line-wide if the people at the top change. Possibly not even EIC, but someone higher up the line at Warner.

      It's hard to imagine any comic book editor or publisher admitting (before an official announcement could not be put off any longer) "Yes, we are planning to reboot our universe next year." Of course they have to scoff and demur, because they still have to sell the comic books of today. And they can't allow the possibility of negative backlash to affect their resolve. The word "reboot", in comic book reader parlance, has the blackest taint to it, so they will always try to cast things in a different light.
      Unless they're using it as a Huge Marketing Tool (worlds will live, worlds will die, etc.). But I've generally seen Tom Brevoort get genuinely irritated at being asked over and over again, and his tone doesn't seem to suggest they're really planning on doing that--he's even talked about Marvel having a looser approach to continuity these days by letting various things quietly drop and be forgotten rather than a 1980s-style storyline there to patch the cracks. You can read and ask him stuff on his Tumbr here: http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com/

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
        I didn't specifically expect a "total" reboot, but I've seen a pattern of at least partial reboots something like every seven years or so on average. I'm sure we'll get something different (whether line-wide reboot or something like Zero Hour or ... God only knows, really), but from the current crop of people running the asylum at DC, I do not have faith it will be good if New 52 is any example. At the moment I'm only expecting positive change line-wide if the people at the top change. Possibly not even EIC, but someone higher up the line at Warner.
        I don't expect a 'total reboot' again from DC soon. But sales have definitely tapered off, so there will be something like a "next phase". Look to the weeklies New 52 Futures End and the upcoming Earth 2: Earth War for clues about where it's going. Hints about the Earth War were dropped in the first couple of issues of Futures End, and it looks like both weeklies' storylines will end and meld into May-June 2015's "Blood Moon" event, which I expect will shake up the status quo and introduce a number of new titles. Interestingly, the just-relaunched Teen Titans title doesn't look to be made to survive past the Blood Moon event, as it's already been noted in Futures End that all of the Titans (except Tim Drake) die in the Earth War. And Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor are coming (and I would guess, Volthoom as well). As for who the Anti-Monitor was talking to in that final splash panel intro page in Justice League, I'm betting on Atrocitus. I'm sure the actual Future's End tangent (which takes place in 2019) itself will somehow be averted, and whether Multiversity will have any effect on the New 52, who knows - but it could wind up as 'something like' a reboot. Only time will tell whether my friend's theory of the DC line only running 52 issues pans out, but that's still a couple of years off, subtracting skip months for events.

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        • I wouldn't put any faith in the people running Marvel (irrespective of the niceness of any of them as individuals) being simpatico to your wants and needs or having your best interests at heart, either. Business is business, and ultimately they have to take their marching orders from their corporate bosses at Disney.

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          • I'm pretty pleased with Disney, myself, actually, so...

            To me, apart from the New Avengers/Illuminati stuff mentioned above, Marvel in pretty much every single way I can think of is the best it has been--at least, by my own tastes--in years.

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            • Apart from a half-dozen titles that I'm following with interest for entertainment purposes, Marvel as a whole is a big mess to me. Old Man Rogers, the "Tenth Realm" thing, a female Thor, past and future co-existing X-Men, the Avengers as a LSH-style army, etc. And they just can't seem to figure out what to do with the Hulk. Of the iconic characters, only Daredevil and Iron Man seem solid and stable, despite recent tweaks to the status quo. Nice to see Silver Surfer and She-Hulk back in fun books, but I don't expect those to be any long-running things, nor Invaders either.

              I find myself spending far more on their reprint line. The recent introduction of the "Epic Collection" series is a good deal, with Marvel seemingly finally finding a happy medium between Masterworks and Essentials, but not having to follow any slavish chronological reprint order, and letting the stories and creative teams dictate their choices.

              If I had to trace the history of "Modern Marvel", the steps that led to the Marvel Universe becoming an unfamiliar place to me, I guess it begins back in 1998 with the introduction of the Marvel Knights imprint. I suppose one could look back even further, to the 1996 horribly-misnamed "Heroes Reborn" Image-ization of Marvel, which has to be termed a failed experiment on every level - although it resulted in both pleasant repercussions with the very-aptly-named "Heroes Return" revitalization of those same titles, while at the same time serving as a sort of "road test" for the later Ultimate Marvel. Marvel Knights was initially not necessarily looked upon as part of mainstream Marvel, but it was followed by the introduction of the Ultimate Marvel line in 2000. At first, both MK and UM functioned as sort of a "Marvel Test Lab", where they could bend and tinker with the MU characters, and put them through changes that didn't fit in the classic Marvel Universe, but both placed an emphasis on greater realism, the latter particularly taking a movies-on-paper approach. The results of those tests began to be felt in the main MU with Grant Morrison's "New X-Men" in 2001 and Brian Michael Bendis' "Avengers Disassembled" in 2004, followed in 2006 by absorption of the Marvel Knights imprint into the mainstream Marvel Universe. As time passed, going through the major event phases of 616-Marvel, Ultimate Marvel fed into the Marvel film projects, and then was reabsorbed back into the main Marvel 616-universe. A lot of the main thrust of the philosophical shift proceeds from both Joe Quesada and Brian Michael Bendis. Undeniably, *some* interesting stories came out of all this, but for the most part (Brubaker's long run on Captain America being a highlight exception), MU-616 has shifted in a way where I don't really feel I know or like most of the characters any more. There are some exceptions, but I'm speaking by and large, and with the caveat that both the X-Men and Spider-Man franchises departed from my sphere of interest in terms of any emotional investment in what happened to the characters back in the early '90s.
              Last edited by pulphero; 08-11-2014, 03:00 AM.

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              • G'day,

                Exactly , which is why I expect something more closely related to the movies to emerge from the mess. Imagine a person who likes the characters in the movies coming to a comic book store and seeing the Marvel rack. Utter confusion. They might do what I did which was to look at the Dynamite books instead but thats no help to Marvel.

                ta

                Ralph



                Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                Apart from a half-dozen titles that I'm following with interest for entertainment purposes, Marvel as a whole is a big mess to me. Old Man Rogers, the "Tenth Realm" thing, a female Thor, past and future co-existing X-Men, the Avengers as a LSH-style army, etc. And they just can't seem to figure out what to do with the Hulk. Of the iconic characters, only Daredevil and Iron Man seem solid and stable, despite recent tweaks to the status quo. Nice to see Silver Surfer and She-Hulk back in fun books, but I don't expect those to be any long-running things, nor Invaders either.

                .

                Comment


                • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                  Apart from a half-dozen titles that I'm following with interest for entertainment purposes, Marvel as a whole is a big mess to me. Old Man Rogers, the "Tenth Realm" thing, a female Thor, past and future co-existing X-Men, the Avengers as a LSH-style army, etc. And they just can't seem to figure out what to do with the Hulk. Of the iconic characters, only Daredevil and Iron Man seem solid and stable, despite recent tweaks to the status quo. Nice to see Silver Surfer and She-Hulk back in fun books, but I don't expect those to be any long-running things, nor Invaders either.
                  Different tastes, I suppose. (Though isn't the whole point of the MU "entertainment purposes"? Don't get me wrong, I find them inspiring personally as well...) For me I look back and think that this is as it's ever been--"Old Man Rogers, the "Tenth Realm" thing, a female Thor, past and future co-existing X-Men, the Avengers as a LSH-style army, etc." is to me not dissimilar from, say, a horse-alien Thor, different people replacing Steve and Tony as Cap and Iron Man for a while, X-Men from alternate realities (Rachel) and futures (Bishop, Cable) while some people turned out to be clones (Maddie) and others wound up in different bodies (Psylocke) not to mention characters like Illyana who were... kind of time/dimension-lost after spending years in Limbo and becoming a sort of sorceress thingy who might become a female Damien Thorne if she's not careful, and extra Avengers teams (Avengers West Coast/West Coast Avengers)--most of which were in the 1980s and early 1990s! Re the Hulk, hasn't he been basically changing for... well, forever? I mean, again in the 1980s, he became more intelligent and then he lost all of his intelligence and then he was banished to other dimensions and then he came back and then he was split into Banner and Hulk as separate beings (in the blink-or-you'll-miss-it run of John Byrne) and then he was intelligent again and joined this group with a Greek name I forget and then he was Mr. Fixit and then he was himself again I think and so on and so on and so on. So to me, One Hulk Two Hulk Red Hulk Blue Hulk isn't really that much different than all of the other things Hulk's had done over the years.
                  Last edited by ChastMastr; 08-11-2014, 08:30 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                    Different tastes, I suppose. (Though isn't the whole point of the MU "entertainment purposes"?
                    I meant there are some Marvel books that I'm following (ASM, All New X-Men, Original Sin, for example) because I have access to them (borrowed), with no delusions of ever re-reading the stories (which is what I consider the mark of quality in a comic book, otherwise why "collect" them?), purely from a curiosity factor, sort of like you might follow an ongoing story of a big disaster in the news, or just to "keep in the loop". Entertainment has less bearing on it, as does what I think of the characters, the quality of the writing and art, etc. Think of them as too big to ignore.

                    On the other hand I have no problem ignoring DC's Batman and Superman titles (along with most of the New 52 superhero titles). Occasionally I will succumb to the temptation to read one "to see what's going on".

                    Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                    and then he was intelligent again and joined this group with a Greek name I forget
                    The Pantheon.
                    Last edited by pulphero; 08-11-2014, 11:37 AM.

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                    • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                      I meant there are some Marvel books that I'm following (ASM, All New X-Men, Original Sin, for example) because I have access to them (borrowed), with no delusions of ever re-reading the stories (which is what I consider the mark of quality in a comic book, otherwise why "collect" them?), purely from a curiosity factor, sort of like you might follow an ongoing story of a big disaster in the news, or just to "keep in the loop". Entertainment has less bearing on it, as does what I think of the characters, the quality of the writing and art, etc. Think of them as too big to ignore.

                      On the other hand I have no problem ignoring DC's Batman and Superman titles (along with most of the New 52 superhero titles). Occasionally I will succumb to the temptation to read one "to see what's going on".
                      Exactly the way I feel about a lot of Marvel titles. I like to know what's going on, and I'll get the occasional issue, but I don't like the titles enough to re-read them.

                      Regarding the Superman and Batman titles, I've read every issue of the New 52 Batman title, but except for the occasional issue of Batman and Robin or Detective Comics, I read no other Bat-books.
                      Beyond a few scattered issues of Action Comics, I haven't read much New 52 Superman besides the Geoff Johns and John Romita Jr. run.
                      Justice League was decent for about 12 issues, but it started to go downhill once the Throne of Atlantis story arc started. I've only read a few issues of Justice League since that arc.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ralphuniverse View Post
                        G'day,

                        Exactly , which is why I expect something more closely related to the movies to emerge from the mess. Imagine a person who likes the characters in the movies coming to a comic book store and seeing the Marvel rack. Utter confusion. They might do what I did which was to look at the Dynamite books instead but thats no help to Marvel.

                        ta

                        Ralph
                        I deal in vintage British comics so I know a few people who work in or run comic shops. One thing they all agree on is that the movies make no discernible difference to comics sales, in their experience. People just don't watch the movies and then decide to check out comics.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tony ingram View Post
                          I deal in vintage British comics so I know a few people who work in or run comic shops. One thing they all agree on is that the movies make no discernible difference to comics sales, in their experience. People just don't watch the movies and then decide to check out comics.
                          Really? Nothing at all in England? All the Walking Dead, Buffy, Star Wars, Dr. Who, Batman: Arkham City/Asylum/Unleashed, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, My Little Pony, etc. comics only selling to those people who mainly just came in for their Marvel and DC fix? No walk-ins asking specifically for any of these? Now granted, we are talking fractional percentages of the movie and television audiences here... But with most conventions becoming overwhelming media-oriented, no significant crossover audience whatsoever? That's a bit of a head-scratcher, as one would think both Dark Horse and IDW would have folded their doors, or at least significantly realigned their business model. I guess it's possible that without Marvel and DC, they can't exist. But don't we really have to at least attempt to trick people into becoming fans of the medium? Every little bit counts. None of the older crowd first exposed to the characters through Batman '66, Super Friends, or Spider-Man and X-Men cartoons? Or is reading itself in such decline that all hope is lost for this industry, unless we're dependent on existing prolific comic readers as prolific breeders of new comic readers as well (even then, the odds don't seem very good...) Perhaps the whole economic model is so out-of-whack that there's no point in trying, after all. No concessions to accessibility for anyone, just make them work as hard at it as the readers 20 years ago had to?

                          And it's possible that if you're specializing in vintage, there's really no crossover at all there, as opposed to a more general comic dealer.

                          Now clearly, there aren't any neat and simple answers to this the problem, but I don't know if just allowing things to follow the course that they have been, and things will just work themselves out, is really going to do the trick either. It's possible, but it seems to me audience shrinkage over time is kind of a serious thing for the medium. If it's plainly a subset of the larger issue of literacy in general, then I guess there's nothing for it but the waiting.
                          Last edited by pulphero; 08-11-2014, 05:14 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                            I meant there are some Marvel books that I'm following (ASM, All New X-Men, Original Sin, for example) because I have access to them (borrowed), with no delusions of ever re-reading the stories (which is what I consider the mark of quality in a comic book, otherwise why "collect" them?), purely from a curiosity factor, sort of like you might follow an ongoing story of a big disaster in the news, or just to "keep in the loop". Entertainment has less bearing on it, as does what I think of the characters, the quality of the writing and art, etc. Think of them as too big to ignore.
                            Ah. Yes, I keep aware of stuff mainly through osmosis via the comics news sites and the solicits, with the occasional dip into checking out things to see if they're as bad as I have heard (or, more rarely, to see if I want to get them after all--since I already have a pretty comprehensive list of books I want to get later on, this doesn't need as much adding to, unless it's by a writer I've just never encountered before). A book I can only read once is to me kind of a waste also--I can deal with webcomics that way sometimes.

                            On the other hand I have no problem ignoring DC's Batman and Superman titles (along with most of the New 52 superhero titles). Occasionally I will succumb to the temptation to read one "to see what's going on".
                            Oh, I heartily recommend Greg Pak's Action and Batman/Superman stuff. Sadly, Gail Simone is leaving Batgirl, but the new team and direction sound very good to me. Other than that I'm not getting any Super- or Batbooks. Oh wait, there's Gotham Academy--I'm checking that out.

                            The Pantheon.
                            Yes, that was it. I never picked up the Peter David run though I probably should when I can.

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                            • This is my list of "New 52" books from DC coming out in October that are "when I can get them" titles:

                              Jurgens AQUAMAN AND THE OTHERS #6 $2.99 2014.1
                              Parker AQUAMAN #35 $2.99 2014.1
                              Palmiotti HARLEY QUINN #11 $2.99 2014.08
                              Palmiotti HARLEY QUINN ANNUAL #1 $5.99 2014.1

                              (Author... title... price... and date of storyline. So HARLEY QUINN #11 is part of a storyline starting in August. That way I can sort the spreadsheet by the date in that column and buy and read the back issues in order by storyline.)

                              Ones I am getting when they come out in October are:

                              EARTH 2: WORLD’S END #1
                              EARTH 2: WORLD’S END #2
                              EARTH 2: WORLD’S END #3
                              EARTH 2: WORLD’S END #4
                              EARTH 2 #27
                              THE MULTIVERSITY: THE JUST #1
                              GOTHAM ACADEMY #1
                              TRINITY OF SIN #1
                              JUSTICE LEAGUE UNITED ANNUAL #1
                              JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK ANNUAL #2
                              JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK #35
                              SECRET ORIGINS #6
                              JUSTICE LEAGUE 3000 #10
                              ACTION COMICS #35
                              WORLDS’ FINEST #27
                              BATMAN/SUPERMAN #15
                              BATGIRL #35
                              BATMAN BEYOND UNIVERSE #15
                              SENSATION COMICS FEATURING WONDER WOMAN #3
                              THE SANDMAN: OVERTURE #4
                              ASTRO CITY #16

                              which you'll notice, for present-day New 52 "main Earth" stuff, is:

                              GOTHAM ACADEMY #1
                              TRINITY OF SIN #1 (DeMatteis)
                              JUSTICE LEAGUE UNITED ANNUAL #1 (LSH-related, so technically it sort of doesn't count)
                              JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK ANNUAL #2 (DeMatteis)
                              JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK #35 (DeMatteis)
                              SECRET ORIGINS #6
                              ACTION COMICS #35 (Pak)
                              BATMAN/SUPERMAN #15 (Pak)
                              BATGIRL #35

                              Everything else being related to Earth 2 or other universes/continuities/times.

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                              • Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                                EARTH 2: WORLD’S END #1
                                EARTH 2: WORLD’S END #2
                                EARTH 2: WORLD’S END #3
                                EARTH 2: WORLD’S END #4
                                Hmm. For some reason (just not paying close attention, I guess) I thought it was "Earth 2: Earth War", which would definitely have tied it to prior references in FUTURES END. Perhaps I am mistaken about that, or was just confused by the fact that both weeklies will end in the week prior to the 2-month BLOOD MOON event, and intuited a connection that really isn't there. Is this series a crossover between the New 52 and Earth 2 parallels, or is it supposed to be pretty well confined to Earth 2 characters? Guess it *could* still amount to the same thing, but now I have cause for doubt. Supposedly "4 years ago" (from the perspective of FUTURES END in 2019), which would place the referenced event in 2015, all the Teen Titans died in the "Earth War" (as a matter of public record, at any rate), which was said to be between the New 52 Earth and Earth 2. Earth 2 refugees are now treated like enemy aliens on Earth-New 52 (which, according to MULTIVERSITY, should be designated "Earth 0") in 2019. Apparently there is no Earth 52. Might be a matter of perspective, I guess, with Earth 0 inhabitants calling it the Earth War, while from Earth 2's vantage point it's the World's End. I remembered seeing a red X over one Earth on the Multiversity poster, but that turns out to be Earth 10. Nothing similar over Earth 2, so either no spoilers on the poster, or it doesn't actually end.
                                Last edited by pulphero; 08-11-2014, 08:24 PM.

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