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  • #16
    Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
    That would have definitely worked a lot better.

    Hmmm. Some people have suggested that all of these "grim future" things DC is doing right now--given the recent appearance of (SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER) the Anti-Monitor, and that several of these weekly series are all ending at the thirtieth anniversary of the original Crisis--are leading up to Yet Another Reboot. If we get something better out of it (please, God, let us get something better than the New 52!!), then I imagine that Jonah will be rebooted as well, so the whole "WTF, how can they possibly get him back to normal" issue might be resolved by it never happening in the upcoming continuity.

    Of course I have no idea what the heck they're going to do. Maybe it would be more like Zero Hour, with a few tweaks here and there, maybe it would be no reboot at all, just part of the downward spiral of the DCU as a whole, maybe it will be a reboot but one I will like even less than the New 52 (I mean, it's being run by the same people who've screwed it up, right? Sigh)... no clue. Hoping. Fingers crossed. Eventually I know it will pass, and I am pretty sure sooner rather than later (but that could still be a few years more).

    Sigh...
    I honestly don't think they're going to back down and admit that they shouldn't have altered this or that, and use this Crisis as an excuse to "go back" to anything. I think New 52 Futures End pretty much tells you (without any specifics) what to expect -- there is a big war between Earth-N52 and Earth 2 (referred to in the series, which takes place 5 years in the future as "4 years ago"). Earth 2 people are persona non grata now on the main Earth, they're considered alien enemies, and there are ways to scan a person to determine his dimensional origin. So, ergo... Big War. "Crisis on Two Earths", Anti-Monitor, Darkseid, maybe even Volthoom (leftover plot thread connecting GL Corps and Forever Evil's new Power Ring). Not every "crisis-with-a-capital-C" involves universes merging or otherwise being rebooted. There's the time-travel alteration aspect of Terry McGinnis' mission to the past, though.
    Last edited by pulphero; 06-04-2014, 04:31 PM.

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    • #17
      Oh, I don't expect them to admit anything per se. But I do expect that a more classic-style DCU will return at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later. How long? I don't know, but I shall wait.

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      • #18
        And of course they've totally dropped the thread (or ... maybe they're trying to be subtle? No idea) about Pandora merging the universes to deal with Some Big Thing They Have to Fight, then appearing in every single New 52 first issue, and now... her series is ending soon. Annoyingly, I honestly think this is not a long-term plan which will see fruit later, but just standard current DC editorial incompetence/whim. We've heard a million things from fleeing creators about how the culture at DC has changed for the worse, with nigh-random editorial mandates handed down and then changed. Even if it was a reboot as I long for, I don't expect it to be done well under the current powers that be. ("It's the NEW New 52! With MORE collars! MORE random lines on costumes! DARKER, GRIMMER characters! Surely this will sell even better! If one new stove cuts my cooking bills in half, then two stoves should make it altogether free, right?" Etc.) So whatever happens, I'll just keep buying the wee number of DC titles I get, till there are more I think better.

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        • #19
          With Pandora and Phantom Stranger cancelled, I wonder whither "The Dark" subgroup of New 52 titles? Justice League Dark (thanks to its title and crossovers with the more mainstream superhero events) probably isn't in any danger. Not sure about Constantine; and there are certainly a few titles selling worse than Swamp Thing. Yet it's hard to maintain any sense of a "group" or subgenre within the main universe if there are only 3 titles involved. Still, The Phantom Stranger hasn't had this big a presence at DC since his original series in the 1970s.

          I suppose that Deadman, the Spectre, Madame Xanadu, Black Orchid, Zatanna, and possibly even a revamped Frankenstein (the previous Agent of S.H.A.D.E. title being more of a SF-superhero than supernatural) are all possibilities for getting their own book (certainly some of the characters they've already tried are more obscure). Another one is the third of the Trinity of Sin, The Question. Although never previously a supernatural character, I'm actually sort of intrigued by the new concept (although it's also vague enough that if not handled well, it could be a mess).
          Last edited by pulphero; 06-05-2014, 12:32 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
            And of course they've totally dropped the thread (or ... maybe they're trying to be subtle? No idea) about Pandora merging the universes to deal with Some Big Thing They Have to Fight
            Is there a specific issue I can reference for that? I don't even remember it. I've pretty much read only Pandora's own series and her appearances in JLDark and PS.
            Last edited by pulphero; 06-05-2014, 12:54 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by pulphero View Post
              Interesting. The FINAL ISSUE tag appears in the printed Diamond Previews catalog for June.
              Well,I was buying Action Comics until around #20.I thought it was a mess.
              Did,nt buy the main Superman title.
              WAS thinking I,d try and collect the Green Lantern but something inside says no.

              Batman has been consistantly good aside from all the crossover stuff.I,m not a fan of that and DC or Marvel can forget about me buying loads of titles I don,t usually buy.

              Just started collecting Detective Comics and again,very good.Anyone got a spare issue 5

              They cancelled Superman Unchained and that was a pretty good title.A good "in" to the Superman world.

              Batman/Superman is really good and I do love Jai Lees art...very challenging but good.

              Stopped Justice League,tried JLA...nonsense and have,nt tried any other JL titles.

              My 2 cents.

              RALPH (UK).

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              • #22
                Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                Is there a specific issue I can reference for that? I don't even remember it. I've pretty much read only Pandora's own series and her appearances in JLDark and PS.
                Well, she showed up towards the end of Flashpoint #5, and then appeared for a cameo shot in EVERY SINGLE New 52 first issue in August/September 2011 . . .

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by ralphtown View Post
                  Batman has been consistantly good aside from all the crossover stuff.I,m not a fan of that and DC or Marvel can forget about me buying loads of titles I don,t usually buy.

                  Just started collecting Detective Comics and again,very good.Anyone got a spare issue 5

                  My 2 cents.

                  RALPH (UK).
                  I actually enjoyed the brief run of John Layman and Jason Fabok on Detective Comics. Of course, I'd barely discovered that fact (caught up on some older issues after I'd discovered it by accident) when it was announced that Brian Buccellato and Francis Manapul were taking over. Bummer. I will admit that those design-y looking covers are fabulous, but I have no faith in Brian Buccellato, so I'm out. The beauty of it was that I was able to follow the Layman/Fabok run without reading any other New 52 Batman comics (not a fan of Scott Snyder, sorry). One of the things I liked really about the Layman/Fabok run (besides the great artwork) was that John Layman really seemed to "get" the character of Batman, at least as I see him. He also pointedly tried to make the stories there different by emphasizing the detective Batman in Detective Comics. The third thing I liked about it was that Layman took some of the not-as-frequently-seen Batman villains (Man-Bat, The Penguin, Poison Ivy, and the semi-obscure Wrath) and used the excuse of the New 52 reboot to bring interesting new dimensions of characterization to them.

                  Read a couple of the early Action Comics, but dropped it like a hot potato. Hard to believe Morrison was so good on All Star Superman, but then he barfs up this crap. No further interest in New 52 Superman.

                  Did you read Forever Evil? If so, what did you think? I was originally interested only because I figured the Crime Syndicate would be the stars of the series, and I thought, well, they're pretty hard to f-up, because the earlier versions were such blank slates. So then there was the ending. Not only weren't the CS the stars, but they're pretty much all dead now (except the unholy trinity). Who the hell wastes potential good recurring villains? So thumbs down for me.
                  Last edited by pulphero; 06-06-2014, 03:20 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MajorHoy View Post
                    Well, she showed up towards the end of Flashpoint #5, and then appeared for a cameo shot in EVERY SINGLE New 52 first issue in August/September 2011 . . .
                    Well, there you go. Someone pointed out the Flashpoint appearance to me, which I had read, but at the time the character meant nothing to me. No way was I going to try to read every New 52 #1 and try to connect the dots, because I didn't give a crap about the character until I read Pandora #1. The only thing I was motivated enough to do was to pick up the FCBD 2012 New 52 issue that had the origin of the Trinity of Sin (and some background on Shazam).
                    Last edited by pulphero; 06-05-2014, 11:37 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Yeah, the idea was that she was responsible for merging the DC, Vertigo and Wildstorm universes into one, for some... really important but vague threat it would need to be strong enough to handle. Then in every single #1 issue, she had a cameo--possibly a photostatted head shot? And then... er... well, no reference to it. Sadly, this seems to be part for the course for the New 52. What seems to be a big important event just concludes, leading to another bigger event, and so on, so we had Trinity War lead to Forever Evil lead to something or other later on, and none of them seem to actually have that cathartic sense of heroic triumph at all, which is a real downer for me to read--so I don't bother with the things, and just get the comics by writers I like that I'd get anyway.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                        Yeah, the idea was that she was responsible for merging the DC, Vertigo and Wildstorm universes into one, for some... really important but vague threat it would need to be strong enough to handle. Then in every single #1 issue, she had a cameo--possibly a photostatted head shot? And then... er... well, no reference to it. Sadly, this seems to be part for the course for the New 52. What seems to be a big important event just concludes, leading to another bigger event, and so on, so we had Trinity War lead to Forever Evil lead to something or other later on, and none of them seem to actually have that cathartic sense of heroic triumph at all, which is a real downer for me to read--so I don't bother with the things, and just get the comics by writers I like that I'd get anyway.
                        Now that I think of it, I may have started reading Justice League Dark first (was NOT crazy about the first arc by Peter Milligan with characters like Rac Shade and Mindbender (I think) and almost didn't take a second look), but the art of Mikel Janin drew me back. From there I jumped to Phantom Stranger, backtracked and read the first 9 issues, and I think, now that I really think about it, PS is what made me look for a copy of the FCBD 2012 New 52, just for that Trinity of Sin origin story. So at that point I went on to try Pandora #1 through 3 or 4, liked it, and then kept reading that one too. Then a little while back I heard good things about Charles Soule's Swamp Thing so I checked out the first few of those (#19-23 or so) and again found that it was pretty good (amazingly, since I'd hated Snyder's version and gave up after his first arc). Then Johnny (come-lately) Constantine came along, and I figured what the heck, might as well complete the set.

                        I'm gonna say someone should have told Pandora that "Vertigo" wasn't a universe, so it couldn't merge with anything. Unless she first appeared in all the individual Vertigo titles (probably tough to do with all the ones that had ended) and merged THEM all into a "Vertigo universe" first.

                        Besides, what Vertigo character needed to be merged into the DC universe? The DC universe already had a Swamp Thing, Constantine, Phantom Stranger, Spectre, Zatanna, Xanadu... Just because you didn't see Swamp Thing or Constantine around anywhere in the DCU for a while doesn't mean they went anywhere. Or conversely, you might just as well argue that when Swamp Thing or John Constantine, Hellblazer was a Vertigo title, just because you didn't see Batman or Superman around or referred to in those titles, doesn't mean they didn't exist. It's like saying, why should Sergeant Rock have to acknowledge the existence of the JSA from time to time to "prove" they're in the same universe. Normally, they just have nothing to do with each other. On the other hand, there's no reason why there couldn't be a universe with a Sgt. Rock but no JSA, or a universe with a JSA but no Sgt. Rock, because the characters might be essentially identical counterparts in whatever universe they're in.
                        Last edited by pulphero; 06-07-2014, 07:40 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                          Sadly, this seems to be part for the course for the New 52. What seems to be a big important event just concludes, leading to another bigger event, and so on, so we had Trinity War lead to Forever Evil lead to something or other later on, and none of them seem to actually have that cathartic sense of heroic triumph at all, which is a real downer for me to read--so I don't bother with the things, and just get the comics by writers I like that I'd get anyway.
                          And this is different from Marvel's never-ending cycle of events, how, exactly? You just described everything that happened at Marvel from Civil War to Original Sin. Wow, as I just typed that I realized even the titles sound almost the same.

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                          • #28
                            (1) Hated, hated, hated Civil War and much that came from/led to it. Hated it. Passionately. To me, that was Marvel's Bad Period. I think things have much improved, especially due to:

                            (2) Marvel having a lot better writing than DC overall right now. (In my opinion.) I think things have become vastly better with Axel Alonso at the helm.

                            (3) I have to go since my partner is sighing about me being back on the computer *blush*

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                            • #29
                              Now that I think of it though, I'll amend that statement. There was a definite break in the domino chain of one major Marvel event touching off the next in between Siege and... (I think) Fear Itself?
                              Then the chain started all over again, leading right up through Inhumanity. Now that I think of it Original Sin doesn't seem to have been touched off by something from the previous big crossover event. It also seems (so far, but I've been fooled before) to be better written than most Marvel events in recent memory.

                              But that business you mentioned about the flat endings that aren't even real endings, they're really just segues into whatever the next crossover is, that's pretty real. From Secret Invasion through Siege, it was all Bendis, Bendis, Bendis, and that seems to be his trademark plotting. After that they let Fraction and other people carry the ball. Now it's Jason Aaron on Original Sin. Whatever big editorial summits they seem to have each year with the so-called "architects" of the MU seems to have mandated that pattern to try to stabilize sales patterns to some degree over the course of a year, rather than having one big sales spike for 3 months followed by a long breathing period in between.

                              Not defending the New 52 DCU in any way, but they're just following a proven pattern that Marvel provided. Got to admit I didn't read a whole heck of a lot of Trinity War (only interested because of the Dark crossovers). One thing I'll give DC credit for: "the Dark" tie-in to Forever Evil, "Blight", (even though branded to try to take advantage of it) really was it's own separate sideline crossover event that you didn't need to read Forever Evil to understand (and vice-versa), as long as you accepted the premise that FE was going on elsewhere and had thrown the world into a state of chaos that precipitated events of a supernatural nature. I don't know that Blight was one of the better crossover stories I've ever read, but I guess it wasn't one of the worst either. Forever Evil itself (the main series) was a major letdown because ultimately there wasn't much of a conflict between the Justice League and the Crime Syndicate. That all seemed to take place offstage, except for the last pages of the final issue. FE was more like a Brave and the Bold team-up featuring Batman and Lex Luthor (with Catwoman, Black Manta, Captain Cold, , Black Adam, Bizarro, and Sinestro thrown in as a supporting cast). Everything else was pure incidentals of escaped supervillains running amok. I just don't think Geoff Johns' heart is in these stories any more (although there was a brief glimmer there in a couple of issues where he reintroduced the Metal Men). He's just following the building plans of the DC "architects" (Didio and Lee). He took their money and ceremonial title, but I'll bet he just can't wait to get the hell out of there and just play around with developing DC media properties. It says something that the New 52 can take one of my once all-time favorite DC characters (Dick Grayson) and reduce him to a cardboard cutout that I don't care whether lives or dies. "Agent of Spyral" -- pfft. Give me a break.

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                              • #30
                                The most interesting DC title I found in the June Previews catalog wasn't even in the DC Comics section of the catalog. It's not even new, it's a re-list item (it shipped last August). Originally I wasn't even all that interested in the Art Baltazar stuff, but now it's looking like a more viable option by contrast to the bulk of DC Comics. May have to take a second look at those Tiny Titans TPBs while I'm at it.

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                                Last edited by pulphero; 06-08-2014, 06:32 AM.

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