Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

My DC reading list is shrinking again.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • (For "so at the end of this, they'll all live on but probably never be seen again as long as we're in charge," see also: Earth-2 Superman and Lois Lane with Earth-Prime Superboy, after Crisis. And then decades later they brought back E-Prime Superboy and E-3 Alex Luthor as bad guys, which vexed me. Somewhere out there, E-2 Kal and Lois and E-Prime Clark and E-3 Alex did indeed live happily in Paradise, too, and Max Lord never went bad and so on.)

    Comment


    • You can always choose to discard the bits you don't agree with and not incorporate them into your personal headcanon. And of course, before Morrison had anything to say on the subject, there was always nostalgia, back issues, and reprints (and fan fiction). And that's true for any fictional characters, whether the company that used to publish them still exists or not. They live on in the imagination of those that remember them.

      I think we do make some sort of distinction between all that, and some sort of "official" (which is to say, published - in new stories) canon. Many things that DC and Marvel do to their company-owned characters are vexing to me. Generally, you just have to wait it out, until stories come along that you personally find acceptable. Sometimes that's a long wait, and sometimes those stories never come. Some version of the character might continue to exist, but it's no longer the same for you. You move on, or write your own happy ending to the story. The world is not the same as it once was, the audience for certain types of stories and characters is not the same as it once was, and a fictional character, or some specific form of a particular character, may no longer be a viable commercial commodity. Look at Captain Marvel. The likelihood that you are ever going to see new stories about any version of that character even remotely close to the type of stories that were popular when Captain Marvel was a household name, and sold millions of copies, is close to nil. The characters evolve into something acceptable to contemporary audiences, or die, as viable commodities. Of course the decisions affecting these things are in the hands of the corporate owners of the character, and the business and creative choices they make, but ultimately whatever they do, it's up to the public to cast their votes by buying it. They can produce stories that you personally think are wonderful, but if no one else buys them, they wither on the vine and disappear. And sometimes people don't truly appreciate a thing until it's gone, or nearly gone. If pre-Flashpoint DC sales had been great, there never would have been a rebooted New 52 DCU.
      Last edited by pulphero; 12-06-2014, 01:29 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
        You can always choose to discard the bits you don't agree with and not incorporate them into your personal headcanon. And of course, before Morrison had anything to say on the subject, there was always nostalgia, back issues, and reprints (and fan fiction). And that's true for any fictional characters, whether the company that used to publish them still exists or not. They live on in the imagination of those that remember them.

        But I think we do make some sort of distinction between all that and some sort of "official" (which is to say, published - in new stories) canon.
        DC has got me suckered in with this nostalgia trip of Convergence. I will be focusing on the heroes/concepts that I enjoyed over the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, etc. I do not think I will buy the regular weekly mini series--This Under the Dome version of the DCU--like you said if Brainiac did this before the Flashpoint erased those great versions then he is the hero of the piece before "something" happens by the end of this weekly mini-series and all those great things will fade away.

        I will be voting with my wallet for the types of heroes I like from the pre flashpoint eras. I will be just picking up the mini-series that interest me. I definitely am looking forward to Jeff Parker (DE's Flash Gordon god/writer) on one of my favorite superhero concepts Shazam! Things like Marv Wolfman on the New Teen Titans, Len Wein on Swamp Thing, Greg Rucka on the Question/Montoya, Dan Abnett on JSA, Tim Truman on Hawkman, Gail Simone (DE's great Red Sonya writer) on Nightwing/Oracle, etc will draw me to those minis. Supporting concepts like Superboy & the Legion of Superheroes (wish they brought back Mike Grell for that one), Green Lantern Corps with John Stewart, Blue Beetle (with Vic Sage back as the Question!), Suicide Squad (with true-to-size Amanda Waller), Plastic Man & the Freedom Fighters (Phantom Lady, a daughter of a Senator, and the original-Senator-turned-superhero Black Condor were always great concepts for a Post-Scandal-tv-show type comic--come on DC, jump on some trends), Batman & Robin (true Damien as Robin), and World's Finest Comics featuring the Seven Soldiers of Victory (with proper Shinning Knight) will get me buying those as well. For those two months, DC has got me. Currently, I am just getting from DC Justice League (for Shazam), Mutliversity (for Shazam), Batman & Robin (my teenage son loves Damien as Robin), and Detective Comics. The New 52 reboot tore away much of the tradition of heroics from the DCU (my son feels that the Jamie Reyes/Blue Beetle was a shell of the character not having to live up to a heroic legacy of Dan Garrett and Ted Kord--now he is just a guy with a weird alien costume--my son dropped Blue Beetle, his favorite character, because of this change).

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Blinky McQuade View Post
          I will be voting with my wallet for the types of heroes I like from the pre flashpoint eras. I will be just picking up the mini-series that interest me. I definitely am looking forward to Jeff Parker (DE's Flash Gordon god/writer) on one of my favorite superhero concepts Shazam! Things like Marv Wolfman on the New Teen Titans, Len Wein on Swamp Thing, Greg Rucka on the Question/Montoya, Dan Abnett on JSA, Tim Truman on Hawkman, Gail Simone (DE's great Red Sonya writer) on Nightwing/Oracle, etc will draw me to those minis. Supporting concepts like Superboy & the Legion of Superheroes (wish they brought back Mike Grell for that one), Green Lantern Corps with John Stewart, Blue Beetle (with Vic Sage back as the Question!), Suicide Squad (with true-to-size Amanda Waller), Plastic Man & the Freedom Fighters (Phantom Lady, a daughter of a Senator, and the original-Senator-turned-superhero Black Condor were always great concepts for a Post-Scandal-tv-show type comic--come on DC, jump on some trends), Batman & Robin (true Damien as Robin), and World's Finest Comics featuring the Seven Soldiers of Victory (with proper Shinning Knight) will get me buying those as well. For those two months, DC has got me. Currently, I am just getting from DC Justice League (for Shazam), Mutliversity (for Shazam), Batman & Robin (my teenage son loves Damien as Robin), and Detective Comics. The New 52 reboot tore away much of the tradition of heroics from the DCU (my son feels that the Jamie Reyes/Blue Beetle was a shell of the character not having to live up to a heroic legacy of Dan Garrett and Ted Kord--now he is just a guy with a weird alien costume--my son dropped Blue Beetle, his favorite character, because of this change).
          DC has done little nostalgia-invoked events before. "The Silver Age" (12 one-shots in 2000), "DC Comics Presents: A Julie Schwartz Tribute" (8 one-shots in 2004), and "DC Retroactive" (six 3-issue miniseries in 2011) come to mind. I mention these only by way of my thinking those were all fun little things in and of themselves, that didn't change anything or lead to anything else, and essentially I think that's what we're looking at here. Despite CONVERGENCE being a "multiverse" story, or whatever. I think it's just a little fun thing in and of itself, and that's the end of it. Whatever CONVERGENCE titles I buy will probably be going in a box with the aforementioned titles.

          You lost me on "true Damian", Blinky. I'm not sure what Damian that is, or what Damian it's not. Didn't the character make the transition from pre-Flashpoint to New 52 DCU more or less seamlessly, between volumes 1 and 2 of BATMAN INCORPORATED, both under the guidance of Grant Morrison?

          He's not called "Shazam" in Morrison's Multiversity/THUNDERWORLD, is he? I thought it was Captain Marvel or Captain Thunder? Can't say I care much for Geoff Johns' version of Billy Batson in JUSTICE LEAGUE. To me, Lex Luthor (and Batman) are the real stars of the book as it currently exists. They seem to be playing an interesting little chess game, a power struggle with moves and countermoves, with none of their plans so overt as to be predictable, which makes for interesting reading. BATMAN AND ROBIN is the only other New 52 superhero title I find interesting right now, under Peter Tomasi. Only picked it up because of the whole "Robin Rising" thing and the Apokolips connection. Well, maybe "Godhead" in the GL titles, I still haven't decided where they're going with that (if anywhere). Other than that, and all "The Dark" New 52 titles, it's strictly non-New 52 DCs for me: Astro City, Batman '66 (<--Hey look! It's Jeff Parker again!), Multiversity, Sensation Comics. I did read the latest issue of Superman/Wonder Woman just because Peter Tomasi started writing it. It was OK, I guess I'll check it out for a while to see where it goes, but I'm not really a fan of the New 52 versions of either of those characters. I feel like I could drop that, the GL titles, Justice League or Batman & Robin any time I start to feel a little bored by them, though.
          Last edited by pulphero; 12-06-2014, 06:03 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
            DC has done little nostalgia-invoked events before. "The Silver Age" (12 one-shots in 2000), "DC Comics Presents: A Julie Schwartz Tribute" (8 one-shots in 2004), and "DC Retroactive" (six 3-issue miniseries in 2011) come to mind. I mention these only by way of my thinking those were all fun little things in and of themselves, that didn't change anything or lead to anything else, and essentially I think that's what we're looking at here. Despite CONVERGENCE being a "multiverse" story, or whatever. I think it's just a little fun thing in and of itself, and that's the end of it. Whatever CONVERGENCE titles I buy will probably be going in a box with the aforementioned titles.

            You lost me on "true Damian", Blinky. I'm not sure what Damian that is, or what Damian it's not. Didn't the character make the transition from pre-Flashpoint to New 52 DCU more or less seamlessly, between volumes 1 and 2 of BATMAN INCORPORATED, both under the guidance of Grant Morrison?

            He's not called "Shazam" in Morrison's Multiversity/THUNDERWORLD, is he? I thought it was Captain Marvel or Captain Thunder? Can't say I care much for Geoff Johns' version of Billy Batson in JUSTICE LEAGUE. To me, Lex Luthor (and Batman) are the real stars of the book as it currently exists. They seem to be playing an interesting little chess game, a power struggle with moves and countermoves, with none of their plans so overt as to be predictable, which makes for interesting reading. BATMAN AND ROBIN is the only other New 52 superhero title I find interesting right now, under Peter Tomasi. Only picked it up because of the whole "Robin Rising" thing and the Apokolips connection. Well, maybe "Godhead" in the GL titles, I still haven't decided where they're going with that (if anywhere). Other than that, and all "The Dark" New 52 titles, it's strictly non-New 52 DCs for me: Astro City, Batman '66 (<--Hey look! It's Jeff Parker again!), Multiversity, Sensation Comics. I did read the latest issue of Superman/Wonder Woman just because Peter Tomasi started writing it. It was OK, I guess I'll check it out for a while to see where it goes, but I'm not really a fan of the New 52 versions of either of those characters. I feel like I could drop that, the GL titles, Justice League or Batman & Robin any time I start to feel a little bored by them, though.
            Yes, Convergence is going to be a non-event appealing to nostalgia. It will not change or impact anything. My pipe dream is that selected titles will show a sales bump to take notice by the higher ups of DC.

            Yes, I agree Captain Marvel is being featured in Multiversity (looking forward to it) and that Geoff Johns is making the Justice League title the "Lex Luthor" title. It shows Johns' need to grow as a writer. His focus on events above development of characters hurts the Justice League title. In the five year gap between the first adventure arc to the current stories, the characters are still as undeveloped as they were "five years ago" in the first arc--if someone has been working with someone for five years, you get to know them. The stories of characterization he writes always get stalled by the next Trinity War or Forever Evil event that he himself creates. Currently, he is getting excited to write stories about Lex Luthor being a member of the Justice League forgetting that Shazam (I prefer Captain Marvel or Captain Thunder) and Cyborg are on the team and do not develop at all since they do not have their own comic or back up feature anywhere else. Johns has a lot of creative pull at DC but ideas alone do not make a good comic. It would help if he would tell stories from the point of view of Shazam and Cyborg alternately (what is it like to work along the likes of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc). Even if Shazam and Cyborg do not have titles of their own they should be the focus of the Justice League title as far as character development goes.

            I started buying Green Lantern Corps because it features my favorite Green Lantern John Stewart and the coolest part of the Green Lantern mythos--the alien Green Lanterns. I keep dropping GLC because of the endless crossovers (including God Head--which did look cool) that I cannot afford to buy. My strategy of just buying GLC seemed to work for a while when those crossovers occur but it is getting silly. At its heart, Green Lantern Corps is a sci-fiction police comic that ventures into the superhero stuff a lot. I grew up memorizing the Green Lantern's oath (my son did too--he was saying it aloud in a movie preview of the movie Green Lantern--getting some smiles from others in the theater). My son read all the DC Showcases featuring Green Lantern and proudly announces that his favorite Green Lanterns are Tomar Re and Mogo (mine too). I did like that DC changed the "weakness" of the Green Lanterns from anything yellow to just limitations on a Green Lantern's concentration and imagination. The cartoons of JL/JLU, the Green Lantern Animated series, and DVD cartoons were great (how my son first discovered Green Lantern). With great regret, I dropped the GLC. I opted to focus my money on a more "realistic" sci-fi cop series--Judge Dredd Megazine and 2000 AD. Not too many crossovers there and no weakness to anything yellow either. Just the future of law enforcement as scary as it is becoming.

            SPOILER ALERT ABOUT ROBIN:
            *
            *
            *
            *
            *
            *
            *
            *
            *
            *
            *

            Damien is going to be brought back with superpowers. My son and I liked the Damien who could be possible (if one has received training, one could hang with Batman). I like my Batman (& Robin) to be about non-superpowered heroes fighting to make a difference. The reason I buy a lot of DE's pulp characters. Tomasi's run on the title IS fun. I question this bringing back a superpowered Damien to this mix. It might be fun. We'll see.

            Comment


            • I wasn't making fun, Blinky. I'll grant there are a number of differences between CONVERGENCE and those other nostalgia exercises I mentioned. But I really do think that's what it represents to DC. Much larger in scope, of course, due to the fact that it needs to replace 2 months' worth of regular DC titles, so they can complete moving their offices to California. I really don't think DC is floating the various miniseries tied to CONVERGENCE to test the market for new titles. I expect all the tie-ins will sell about the same, some a little more, some a little less, with none of them emerging as a huge sales success over the others. Certainly Batman-related titles could be expected to sell the best, as a sub-group.

              I was looking at the Lex Luthor thing in JUSTICE LEAGUE as character development for the New 52 Luthor. I think Johns has used JL to define the new Cyborg as well, and is probably working on Shazam in that title, and "Throne of Atlantis" in JL was part of his development of the New 52 Aquaman, which he also "owned" until giving up that title -- those are the only characters he "owns", as writer of JL -- which is why he really can't develop the others much, they're "owned" by the writers of their individual books. So yeah, I agree he hasn't done anything to develop Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, and Wonder Woman, because that's really up to the writers of those titles.

              Surely you don't think Damian is going to wind up having super powers permanently. They'll play it out just until they've exhausted the concept.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                I wasn't making fun, Blinky. I'll grant there are a number of differences between CONVERGENCE and those other nostalgia exercises I mentioned. But I really do think that's what it represents to DC. Much larger in scope, of course, due to the fact that it needs to replace 2 months' worth of regular DC titles, so they can complete moving their offices to California. I really don't think DC is floating the various miniseries tied to CONVERGENCE to test the market for new titles. I expect all the tie-ins will sell about the same, some a little more, some a little less, with none of them emerging as a huge sales success over the others. Certainly Batman-related titles could be expected to sell the best, as a sub-group.

                I was looking at the Lex Luthor thing in JUSTICE LEAGUE as character development for the New 52 Luthor. I think Johns has used JL to define the new Cyborg as well, and is probably working on Shazam in that title, and "Throne of Atlantis" in JL was part of his development of the New 52 Aquaman, which he also "owned" until giving up that title -- those are the only characters he "owns", as writer of JL -- which is why he really can't develop the others much, they're "owned" by the writers of their individual books. So yeah, I agree he hasn't done anything to develop Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, and Wonder Woman, because that's really up to the writers of those titles.

                Surely you don't think Damian is going to wind up having super powers permanently. They'll play it out just until they've exhausted the concept.
                I am hoping this superpowered Damian is temporary maybe an arc or two.

                As for the Justice League, this is the place where we get to see the big guns of the DCU interact with each other. No major character development changes would happen here but at least readers can see them bond as a team and maybe even become friends. I call it the Hardcastle and McCormick writing from Steven J. Cannell approach to writing--if you remember any of his shows A-Team, Riptide, Hardcastle & McCormick, etc., each episode had "character development" but nothing epic changing to change the direction of the show. At the very least, when working with characters you do not "own" from an editorial point of view, you can at least do something from interpersonal relations among the teammates. It is my hope that since Cyborg and Shazam currently do not have their own titles that some more focus on them would be warranted. Johns seems to be having fun with Lex Luthor on the team as it is bringing some "conflict" discussions among the team. "How can we trust Lex Luthor on the team?" discussions--so far it has been the most entertaining stories of the title so far (I have been buying the new 52 JL from the beginning.

                Throne of Atlantis was a good event and I thought would be a great plot for the Justice League movie--It looks like it is being updated for an Justice League animated cartoon to serve as the origin of Aquaman. This leaves an issue of what will be the plot of the Justice League movie. How will it differ from the Avengers movie or movies? Maybe they should start off with a Legion of Doom type of threat instead of an alien invasion (Avengers movie lot) or a Darkseid plot (possible Avengers 3 plot?--used in Justice League War animated DVD). Why would a team of superheroes get together?

                Comment


                • I'll be honest, I've really only been reading Justice League since the FOREVER EVIL event, and only with real interest since Luthor joined. It's probably fair to say that his inclusion on the team has been my only real reason for reading it. No character relationships? What about the relationship between Luthor and Batman? Does that character interaction not count unless they're best buds? And though I've only been reading a relatively short time, I'll disagree with you so far as to say I think Cyborg has gotten a fair shake in those issues I've read, characterization-wise. Shazam has been a lot more sketchy, but I have to say I really liked what Johns did with the re-intros of Metal Men and the Doom Patrol. Though fairly briefly included, I think those reimagined concepts showed real potential. Captain Cold has been another character that seems to be getting attention from Johns, and that's helping to keep my interest, too. At first it looked as if Johns might throw Black Manta into the mix as well (after the events of FE), and I'm kind of sorry he didn't. And the running subplot with Power Ring (though slowly paced) seems to be heading to something potentially Big (maybe Really Really Big -- Anti-Monitor or Volthoom, maybe both). As long as it isn't Darkseid... he's already in BATMAN & ROBIN, and is the looming threat (so far unseen) in both EARTH 2 and GODHEAD, so give him a day off.

                  I honestly can't comment on most of the other Leaguers because to me they're all strangers. I read the first couple of arcs of AQUAMAN (where I thought the characterization of Arthur and Mera was quite good), but dropped it because I had no interest in the actual stories and plots. Sorry to be so blase about the "big guns", but I guess if I really cared about any of them that much I'd probably be reading their own books. Since I'm not, they're sort of just there to fill the mechanics of the plot (not unlike Gardner Fox's original JLA, actually).
                  Last edited by pulphero; 12-06-2014, 05:54 PM.

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X