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  • #16
    Originally posted by MajorHoy View Post
    It's really quite simple (for comic books).

    Clint died. Then he got better.
    Simple... ? Depends on your POV. In this instance, it's analogous to saying that Peter Parker was married to Mary Jane Watson, and now he isn't. In the REAL world, we assume that means something like they got separated or divorced. But in the world of comic books, reality can be altered so that what was once historical fact, no longer is. One of the problems in Hawkeye's case is that we weren't shown any sort of "resurrection" (in the Jesus sense) as it happened. If Scarlet Witch really has the power to resurrect the truly dead, I'd say she should be utilizing that power a lot more often. Or did I miss a flashback continuity implant of events taking place after Avengers Disassembled but before Barton showed up wearing Ronin's costume?

    I'm going to say the Marvel universe where Clint Barton died has the same amount of relevance to the current Marvel universe as the House of M universe, or the Marvel universe where Parker and Watson were husband and wife.

    If there's any simplicity to boil this down to, it's more along the lines of "This happened. But then it un-happened."
    Last edited by pulphero; 11-19-2014, 12:49 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by pulphero View Post
      Well, he certainly appeared to have died in Avengers Disassembled... but since I'm not too clear on how he isn't dead, (Wanda's chaos magic is a wonky reality-bending thing) I'm going to say that however she bent reality, it got un-bent so that it never happened. Marvel's fast-and-loose approach to continuity just seems to be to ignore stuff that they later decide was a bad idea or a mis-step of some sort...
      It happened. Clint remembers it. She brought him back.

      The Ronin thing only seems to have covered the gap between his "apparent non-death after all" and DARK REIGN (during which Bullseye assumed the name).

      That, and the on-again/off-again publication history of YOUNG AVENGERS (and their lack of any continuing supporting roles in-between) makes whether Kate was ever REALLY Hawkeye highly dubious. Of course, she could call herself whatever she wanted under mistaken assumptions (even if those assumptions were common).
      There was no mistaken assumption. She was really Hawkeye. Her use of the name had the blessing of the Avengers, and later of Clint himself. Seriously, she's as "official" as it gets.
      In retrospect, YOUNG AVENGERS was just a bad idea that never really developed into anything, anyway... the sort of marketing-mandated book designed to fill a perceived gap in reader demographics that resulted in a motley collection of characters whose true connections to anything to do with Avengers history are so tenuous and oblique that Stark should have sued them for a 'cease and desist' to avoid tarnishing the franchise -- i.e., none of the characters have any connection to the actual Avengers that they appear to be emulating
      Huh? Patriot was the grandson of the original super soldier, Elijah Bradley. The younger Vision was created via a copy of the original's operating system. Wiccan and Speed are the sons of Wanda Maximoff, somehow. Stature was Ant Man's daughter. How are these characters not connected to the Avengers?
      ... I don't even recall what Kate Bishop's backstory was in all this. Pretty much jumped ship on this group after the first series concluded; a sketchy concept that only held me in thrall as long as their "mysterious connections" to the real Avengers remained unrevealed.
      You missed a lot. The Young Avengers developed into something quite unique over time, and have been a continuous presence in the MU for years now, so I don't really see how you can make that kind of statement.
      Judged by merit, Kate Bishop has about as legitimate a claim to the name as Bullseye does. But apparently, Clint Barton's tolerance for such tomfoolery is significantly influenced by his well-known weakness for a pretty face, even a not-legally-adult one.
      And you know this despite not having read most of her appearances? Sounds more like a straightforward case of "I didn't read it so it doesn't count", to me...

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      • #18
        Originally posted by pulphero View Post
        Simple... ? Depends on your POV. In this instance, it's analogous to saying that Peter Parker was married to Mary Jane Watson, and now he isn't. In the REAL world, we assume that means something like they got separated or divorced. But in the world of comic books, reality can be altered so that what was once historical fact, no longer is. One of the problems in Hawkeye's case is that we weren't shown any sort of "resurrection" (in the Jesus sense) as it happened. If Scarlet Witch really has the power to resurrect the truly dead, I'd say she should be utilizing that power a lot more often. Or did I miss a flashback continuity implant of events taking place after Avengers Disassembled but before Barton showed up wearing Ronin's costume?
        Yes. You evidently missed the story where Clint finds himself alive again and tracks what seems to be an amnesiac Wanda down to Transia with the help of Dr Strange.
        ]

        I'm going to say the Marvel universe where Clint Barton died has the same amount of relevance to the current Marvel universe as the House of M universe, or the Marvel universe where Parker and Watson were husband and wife.

        If there's any simplicity to boil this down to, it's more along the lines of "This happened. But then it un-happened."
        Nope. This happened, but you evidently didn't read the relevant issue that explained it. That's not Marvel's fault.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
          I liked Young Avengers, myself.
          So did I. One of Marvel's better new ideas, after a slightly shaky start.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by tony ingram View Post
            Yes. You evidently missed the story where Clint finds himself alive again and tracks what seems to be an amnesiac Wanda down to Transia with the help of Dr Strange. Nope. This happened, but you evidently didn't read the relevant issue that explained it. That's not Marvel's fault.
            Can you pinpoint the relevant issue? I'm sort of wondering exactly how it is that someone "finds himself alive". Did his atoms just somehow reconstitute, or was the mechanism explained at all? He remembers dying then, and just "finds himself" at a later time and place, with no memory of the intervening time (in some sort of afterlife, one would imagine)? IIRC, he was incinerated, so no corpus delecti... Ah, and conveniently (for lazy writers), Wanda is amnesiac, so no help there with explanations, I take it... and thus no arguing against whether or not the method of resurrection is consistent with Scarlet Witch's established power set. It's just "anything goes", along the lines of The Spectre then, I guess. At least altering reality through chaos magic was something previously established by Avengers Disassembled and House of M.

            I really do wish they'd give the whole "shocking death" followed some time later by the inevitable "Hey, what do you know, I'm alive again" a rest, but as long as event storylines seem to mandate a "shocking death" some time pursuant to the wrap-up, it's a forlorn hope, I guess. There's absolutely no drama left to be had in a character dying, it's merely a matter of how long it will take for them to come back.

            At this point, I'm afraid to even ask what their rationale for the Wasp's miraculous recovery from death was. Wanda again?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by tony ingram View Post
              Patriot was the grandson of the original super soldier, Elijah Bradley. The younger Vision was created via a copy of the original's operating system. Wiccan and Speed are the sons of Wanda Maximoff, somehow. Stature was Ant Man's daughter. How are these characters not connected to the Avengers? You missed a lot. The Young Avengers developed into something quite unique over time, and have been a continuous presence in the MU for years now, so I don't really see how you can make that kind of statement.
              I'll give you Stature as truly connected. She seemed like an afterthought, a late addition.

              Bradley was just a bad idea, tainting a simple straightforward classic origin story for Captain America, making it the US Government's dark and dirty secret -- essentially we're no better than Nazis with their eugenics experiments, if we give credence to this story. If there's a possibility of the subject dying, then we have to experiment on the "inferior races", but when it's a proven concept, get a white man to embody the propaganda ideal. I'd hoped the passage of time would have allowed us to sweep that whole messy business under the rug, but Patriot just perpetuates it. And his grandfather was never a legitimate Captain America, despite the Super Soldier Project connection. There are probably a half-dozen Marvel super-powered characters that have some connection to the Super Soldier Project, that doesn't make them connected to Captain America (though most are villains). But it certainly is a wonderful thing to think we created Captain America to fight against the unholy creed of Nazism by employing the same motives and methods of the Nazis.

              The business of "somehow" is what turns me off to the whole thing... it's just bad writing. Wiccan and Speed exist because someone decided to create them, but their origin makes absolutely no sense, ditto for the whole Iron Lad is Kang/Vision explanation. Hulkling has no connection to Hulk, he's a hybrid clone of Kree (Mar-Vell) and whats-her-name (daughter of the Skrull Emperor) DNA. And what was Kate Bishop's connection to Hawkeye's legacy, anyway?
              Last edited by pulphero; 11-19-2014, 04:20 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                Can you pinpoint the relevant issue?
                New Avengers #26.
                I'm sort of wondering exactly how it is that someone "finds himself alive". Did his atoms just somehow reconstitute, or was the mechanism explained at all? He remembers dying then, and just "finds himself" at a later time and place, with no memory of the intervening time (in some sort of afterlife, one would imagine)?
                He woke up in a park in New York City with no recollection of how he got there.
                IIRC, he was incinerated, so no corpus delecti... Ah, and conveniently (for lazy writers), Wanda is amnesiac, so no help there with explanations, I take it... and thus no arguing against whether or not the method of resurrection is consistent with Scarlet Witch's established power set. It's just "anything goes", along the lines of The Spectre then, I guess. At least altering reality through chaos magic was something previously established by Avengers Disassembled and House of M.
                The boost to Wanda's powers was explained in the Young Avengers limited series The Children's Crusade, in which it was established that she'd been manpulated by Dr Doom all along. But I'm guessing you didn't read that.
                I really do wish they'd give the whole "shocking death" followed some time later by the inevitable "Hey, what do you know, I'm alive again" a rest, but as long as event storylines seem to mandate a "shocking death" some time pursuant to the wrap-up, it's a forlorn hope, I guess. There's absolutely no drama left to be had in a character dying, it's merely a matter of how long it will take for them to come back.

                At this point, I'm afraid to even ask what their rationale for the Wasp's miraculous recovery from death was. Wanda again?
                No. As I think I said earlier, when she was apparently blasted, she automatically shrank to avoid dying but ended up trapped in the Microverse, where her powers wouldn't work. I do agree that the death and resurrection thing is getting old, though.
                Last edited by tony ingram; 11-19-2014, 04:21 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                  I'll give you Stature as truly connected. She seemed like an afterthought, a late addition.

                  Bradley was just a bad idea, tainting a simple straightforward classic origin story for Captain America, making it the US Government's dark and dirty secret -- essentially we're no better than Nazis with their eugenics experiments, if we give credence to this story. If there's a possibility of the subject dying, then we have to experiment on the "inferior races", but when it's a proven concept, get a white man to embody the propaganda ideal. I'd hoped the passage of time would have allowed us to sweep that whole messy business under the rug, but Patriot just perpetuates it. And his grandfather was never a legitimate Captain America, despite the Super Soldier Project connection. There are probably a half-dozen Marvel super-powered characters that have some connection to the Super Soldier Project, that doesn't make them connected to Captain America (though most are villains). But it certainly is a wonderful thing to think we created Captain America to fight against the unholy creed of Nazism by employing the same motives and methods of the Nazis.
                  Well, that's all really a matter of opinion. As a non American, I had no issues with that limited series, I found it perfectly believable, and since Steve Rogers considers Bradley to have been a legitimate Captain america, so do I.

                  The business of "somehow" is what turns me off to the whole thing... it's just bad writing. Wiccan and Speed exist because someone decided to create them, but their origin makes absolutely no sense, ditto for the whole Iron Lad is Kang/Vision explanation. Hulkling has no connection to Hulk, he's a hybrid clone of Kree (Mar-Vell) and whats-her-name (daughter of the Skrull Emperor) DNA. And what was Kate Bishop's connection to Hawkeye's legacy, anyway?
                  None whatsoever. Does she need one?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tony ingram View Post
                    None whatsoever. Does she need one?
                    Well, I believe that was the point I was trying to make. With the exception of Cassie Lang, they are (or were, when they first appeared) all strangers to the people they're modelling themselves as "young" versions of.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                      Well, I believe that was the point I was trying to make. With the exception of Cassie Lang, they are (or were, when they first appeared) all strangers to the people they're modelling themselves as "young" versions of.
                      But they do all (except Kate) have connections to members of the Avengers, even if (as in Eli's case) those connections are tenuous. I don't really see why it matters whether Hulkling is connected to the Hulk or to Mar-Vell, to be honest.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tony ingram View Post
                        But they do all (except Kate) have connections to members of the Avengers, even if (as in Eli's case) those connections are tenuous. I don't really see why it matters whether Hulkling is connected to the Hulk or to Mar-Vell, to be honest.
                        The whole thing just has the stink of dishonesty about it. It's a put-up, a marketing job, straining to create an amalgamation of characters whose relationship to the Avengers is not only tenuous, it's completely impersonal (except for late addition Cassie -- whose father, despite his 2nd generation legacy status of official sanctioning by Hank Pym, was an actual active Avenger for all of what seems like ten minutes). We are presented with characters with only SUPERFICIAL (by design) similarities to Captain America, Thor/Loki, Quicksilver, Hulk and Hawkeye... but not a single one has any personal connection to those original individuals. Hulkling, Wiccan and Speed do share genetic connections, but they are "created", artificial offspring. (Mar-Vell, another Avenger only by posthumous proclamation, was never an active member while alive). Hulking isn't even an original concept, since Mar-Vell's DNA had been used to create earlier "offspring" like Genis, and Wiccan and Speed reminiscent of Wanda and Vision's magical twin children who were later deemed a bad idea and "not real", only a reality-bending manifestation of wish-fulfillment on Wanda's part. (I can only hope some future writer does the same to the Young Avengers in toto.)

                        By comparison, at least AVENGERS ACADEMY was a fairly honest attempt to create a "young generation" of Avengers (and letting the kids just be themselves), by an active initiative of the real Avengers themselves... YOUNG AVENGERS just feels incredibly forced, in essence a bunch of metahuman cosplayers putting on costumes and play-acting their hero-worship. It's patently obvious that someone at Marvel just unilaterally decided it was high time Marvel had an analogue to DC's Teen Titans, but this is an incredibly ham-fisted attempt at emulating that concept, the "sidekick legacy" that really just does NOT work in the MU, because there's no real history there, once Bucky and Toro disappeared.
                        Last edited by pulphero; 11-19-2014, 11:30 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                          The whole thing just has the stink of dishonesty about it. It's a put-up, a marketing job, straining to create an amalgamation of characters whose relationship to the Avengers is not only tenuous, it's completely impersonal (except for late addition Cassie -- whose father, despite his 2nd generation legacy status of official sanctioning by Hank Pym, was an actual active Avenger for all of what seems like ten minutes).
                          About two years, in fact.
                          We are presented with characters with only SUPERFICIAL (by design) similarities to Captain America, Thor/Loki, Quicksilver, Hulk and Hawkeye... but not a single one has any personal connection to those original individuals. Hulkling, Wiccan and Speed do share genetic connections, but they are "created", artificial offspring. (Mar-Vell, another Avenger only by posthumous proclamation, was never an active member while alive). Hulking isn't even an original concept, since Mar-Vell's DNA had been used to create earlier "offspring" like Genis, and Wiccan and Speed reminiscent of Wanda and Vision's magical twin children who were later deemed a bad idea and "not real", only a reality-bending manifestation of wish-fulfillment on Wanda's part.
                          You seem to have missed the point. Wiccan and Speed are not reminiscent of Tommy and Billy-they are Tommy and Billy.
                          (I can only hope some future writer does the same to the Young Avengers in toto.)
                          On behalf of all of us who've followed the team for the past ten years because we quite like them: thanks a lot.

                          By comparison, at least AVENGERS ACADEMY was a fairly honest attempt to create a "young generation" of Avengers (and letting the kids just be themselves), by an active initiative of the real Avengers themselves... YOUNG AVENGERS just feels incredibly forced, in essence a bunch of metahuman cosplayers putting on costumes and play-acting their hero-worship. It's patently obvious that someone at Marvel just unilaterally decided it was high time Marvel had an analogue to DC's Teen Titans, but this is an incredibly ham-fisted attempt at emulating that concept, the "sidekick legacy" that really just does NOT work in the MU, because there's no real history there, once Bucky and Toro disappeared.
                          I would be able to take this opinion more seriously if you'd actually read all the stories you're dismissing.

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                          • #28
                            G'day,

                            Is Young Avengers still running? Anyway, I picked up a couple of the current Hawkeye trades and enjoyed them. Kate Bishop is a fun character i hope to see more off. Wouldn't be surprised if she and a few other younger characters turn up in the MCU perhaps as a TV show. They need a good kids show.

                            ta

                            Ralph

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tony ingram View Post
                              I would be able to take this opinion more seriously if you'd actually read all the stories you're dismissing.
                              Have you ever applied for a job in Marvel's marketing department, Tony? It seems right up your alley. Trying to convince someone that just because they tried a new Marvel series, read the first year's worth, then decided (emphatically) that they didn't like it, they should keep reading anyway... because you can't make a fair value assessment of all future storylines stemming from those un-liked original issues unless you read THEM all, too. I gave the concept a chance to prove itself, before dismissing it, even though it sounded like a bad idea from the outset. That's more than fair.

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                              • #30
                                I don't think most basic story premises are bad (though of course one could argue about any underlying metaphysics or philosophy), but that it's the execution which can fail.

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