Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

DC's Convergence #8 (SPOILERS AHOY!)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • DC's Convergence #8 (SPOILERS AHOY!)

    I was at first dismayed by the end of Convergence #8, but after a clarifying interview, now am pleased, nay, thrilled. Spoilers are in this link.

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    Hmm. The question in my mind is, "Is it worth reading?" Let's just say after reading the first week's worth of books, I was hit by some financial setbacks that made me have to take a hard look and ask "Do I really need this?". Basically, I just decided to give up reading floppy comics. Just going to finish off a dozen or so series that I'm within one or two issues of completing the story arc or miniseries. So, even though I was sort of tempted by the pre-Crisis and CoIE-era characters, I opted out of buying the whole thing, to take a wait-and-see what the reviewers say in retrospect. I still might buy the trade collection of the spine miniseries, if they even put one out in that form... but would it even be comprehensible without reading the supporting 2-issue series? What's it all mean, anyway? The gist that I'm getting is that "yeah, HyperTime, that's basically true... nothing really ever goes away... it's just that sometimes you can't get there from here".

    It's usually not a good sign when people have to have the ending explained to them by the writer. I'm just saying...
    Last edited by pulphero; 05-28-2015, 05:45 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by pulphero View Post
      It's usually not a good sign when people have to have the ending explained to them by the writer. I'm just saying...
      Agreed. I'm hoping that gets tweaked in the trade, since it seems like a LOT of people were really confused by it. I suspect it was a matter of "too many cooks." As a side note, the accompanying array of 2-issue miniseries are basically unnecessary for the main series, and I would just get the ones you'll enjoy for their own sake. (Which is what I'm doing, largely based on writer, with the exception of ones I really want to see just to see those old characters again.)

      Comment


      • #4
        Back to Pre-Crisis?

        I am more of a Marvel guy, so I'm not always up-to-date on the DC Universe and the various titles, but I decided to get Convergence #s 1, 2, 7, and 8 just to get the gist of the story. I read the article from the Convergence writer and found it so full of mumbo-jumbo, I don't know what he was saying. So admitting all this upfront, let me see if I've got this straight...
        • Pre-Crisis = there were different universes for different heroes
        • Crisis = mashes everyone together into one universe with all the heroes along one single timeline
        • Flashpoint = changes history and the Crisis universe's timeline becomes the New 52 Universe
        • Convergence = Brainiac resets everything back to pre-Crisis with different universes for different heroes

        Is that the basic idea? Am I missing or misunderstanding something (especially the definition of "convergence")? DC went through the trouble thirty years ago to simplify the multiple universes of their characters, and now they've decided the new way is too confusing so they went back to multiple universes?
        Last edited by bobrobertson; 06-05-2015, 03:47 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by bobrobertson View Post
          I am more of a Marvel guy, so I'm not always up-to-date on the DC Universe and the various titles, but I decided to get Convergence #s 1, 2, 7, and 8 just to get the gist of the story. I read the article from the Convergence writer and found it so full of mumbo-jumbo, I don't know what he was saying. So admitting all this upfront, let me see if I've got this straight...
          • Pre-Crisis = there were different universes for different heroes
          • Crisis = mashes everyone together into one universe with all the heroes along one single timeline
          • Flashpoint = changes history and the Crisis universe's timeline becomes the New 52 Universe
          • Convergence = Brainiac resets everything back to pre-Crisis with different universes for different heroes

          Is that the basic idea? Am I missing or misunderstanding something (especially the definition of "convergence")? DC went through the trouble thirty years ago to simplify the multiple universes of their characters, and now they've decided the new way is too confusing so they went back to multiple universes?
          Without having read Convergence, you left out some important intermediary events.
          • Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths = DC Multiverse 1.0 (infinite parallel earths)
          • Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths = NO multiverse (DCM 1.0 destroyed)
          • Post-Infinite Crisis = DC Multiverse 2.0 (52 parallel earths)
          • Post-Flashpoint = DCM 2.0 destroyed; DC Multiverse 3.0 replaces it - includes "New 52-Earth", "Earth 2", and 50 other parallels (undisclosed until The Multiversity)


          That's the short version that brings you up to Futures End/Convergence. Somebody else can take it from here. But here's where it gets a little tricky. Everything is being told from the perspective of "the main DC universe" and its inhabitants (whatever one that is in any given era), so the question arises of whether any universes are ever really destroyed, or if they're simply removed from "the local multiverse" (whatever one that is in any given era) to... somewhere that they can't be perceived, detected, or traveled to (from the perspective of "the main DC universe"). That would make DC Multiverses 2.0 and 3.0 merely subsets, local neighborhoods of universes that share vibrational frequencies that can be bridged on occasion, of a larger omniverse. If you can't see it, feel it, measure it, detect it, or get to it, then any other universe apart from the local group of universes you know is merely pie-in-the-sky. Disappeared, destroyed, missing in action, or merely cut off from its former neighbors by no possibility of attuning vibrational frequencies with your own universe.
          Last edited by pulphero; 06-05-2015, 08:08 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Don't forget Zero Hour and Hypertime and Lord knows what else.

            I'd go with Grant Morrison's approach in Animal Man:

            http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/...malMan2416.jpg

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
              Don't forget Zero Hour and Hypertime and Lord knows what else.

              I'd go with Grant Morrison's approach in Animal Man:

              http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/...malMan2416.jpg
              My view is that Morrison's view WAS Hypertime, if not formalized as such, and couched in a more metatextual/archetypal context. We shouldn't get hung up on terminologies or contexts, because these are merely different perspectives for observing what is at root the same phenomenon. When the comic book writer Gardner Fox of Earth-Prime said that knowledge of events of a parallel world came to him in a dream, he wasn't just talking about Jung's collective unconscious or the Aboriginal dreamtime. That kind of communication where none "should" exist isn't just clairvoyance, it mirrors the principle of quantum entanglement (what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance") in particle physics or perhaps, in science-fictional terms, "ripples in The Bleed" connecting the disconnected across separate universes. Cause and effect are unknowable, and in fact meaningless, in quantum entanglement, just as it's impossible to say whether Gardner Fox dreamed or imagined a universe into existence, or that dreams and imagination do not in fact exist, but are merely reflections of another reality.

              Of course I didn't forget those things, but I was just trying to streamline 50 years of multiversal stories down to a bare few bullet points, while avoiding getting bogged down in subsequent corollaries.

              It is a truism that "the more things change, the more they stay the same", but despite all of the intervening events we both mentioned, this page you posted from Animal Man #24 (published by DC in 1990, post-Crisis on Infinite Earths, but pre-everything else) is 100% consistent (even to the contextual framework) with The Multiversity, published in 2015, despite all of the intervening shifts in perspective of the view from whatever is currently the main DC Universe. I'd argue that it isn't inconsistent with the words our universe's Gardner Fox put into the mouth (or was it the other way around?) of Earth-One's Flash, (explaining it, from his perspective, to his Earth-Two counterpart), either:

              “A writer named Gardner Fox wrote about your adventures, which he claimed came to him in dreams. Obviously when Fox was asleep, his mind was ‘tuned in’ on your vibratory Earth! That explains how he ‘dreamed up’ The Flash!”
              Which is the cause, and which the effect? Which is the dreamer, and which the dream? Inherent in the concept of infinite universes is the idea that it doesn't really matter. It's merely a function of the perspective of the observer from his own particular universe. If the fictional (to us) Earth-One Flash can comment on the dreams of the fictional (but real to him) counterpart to our (real) universe's Gardner Fox, when speaking to a character from another universe that he himself once believed to be fictional, and parallel universes do exist (as many quantum physicists believe), isn't it equally possible that our universe's Gardner Fox's imagination was merely a reflection (or something akin to quantum entanglement) of a different reality he believed to be fictional, and his own creation? (In a more modest parallel that involves only the universe we can confirm to exist, most of us accept the concept of "intuition", even if we can't really explain the mechanism by which it operates, because we acknowledge how little we really know about how the processes of human thought work.) If parallel universes do exist, and those universes are infinite in number, then it's not just possible... it's inevitable, implied by the very definition of "infinite"... which both encompasses and exceeds whatever the mind can conceive. It does make it easier for writers being interviewed when confronted by the age-old question "Where do you get your ideas?"... the answer is "The multiverse, of course".

              http://rikdad.blogspot.com/2014/11/m...and-flash.html

              Now you might ask, what about those parallel earths (in Multiversity) that sure do SEEM to have been destroyed? Whether reduced to rubble, or a vacant void occupying the the same vibrational frequency as the formerly healthy parallel earth? You could argue that in multiversal groupings of universes in which only a finite number of parallel worlds (like 52) can occupy frequencies which comprise the entire frequency spectrum of that particular multiverse as a whole, thus enabling some interaction between them (if only relatively rarely), that any Crisis threating a particular universe also has two quantum probabilistic states -- one where the universe is destroyed, and one where it is not. Both states of probability are mutually exclusive, and since both probabilistic states can't occupy the same vibratory frequency, one is forced out of the range of the 52 vibrational frequencies that are near enough to each other to have interaction. It becomes disconnected from that multiverse, and no longer part of the local group of universes. It no longer exists, but only from the perspective of the other 52 universes (even if one or more of those 52 frequencies is now occupied by nothing more than an empty void). Yet the undestroyed counterpart universe continues to exist somewhere, it's just a somewhere (let's call it Hypertime) that is now inaccessable. Presumably this is also the case for univeral Crises where the universe under siege, to all appearances (from the local mulitverse's perspective), appeared to have survived some cosmic threat... but nobody ever goes looking for a destroyed counterpart to a "survivor" universe, just as the other multiversal parallels no longer have any suspicion (since universes are identified strictly by their vibratory signature and location on the vibrational spectrum) that a "destroyed universe" might have split into a surviving counterpart with a new vibrational frequency, still out there, "somewhere"... because it's assumed that the multiverse as a whole is ALL there is, and there ain't no more. It's still possible that later events might result in that parallel universe (or some of its inhabitants) re-attuning itself vibrationally with one, or even all, of the rest of the group at some later unspecified time, or finding a new home within the frequency range of the spectrum of a different multiverse.
              Last edited by pulphero; 06-06-2015, 06:02 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                I was at first dismayed by the end of Convergence #8, but after a clarifying interview, now am pleased, nay, thrilled. Spoilers are in this link.

                Thoughts?
                Now that I think about this, I wonder just what (specifically) it was in that interview that allayed your initial dismay. Assuming the dismay was in regard to a conclusion to the story that didn't seem to make sense or was ambiguous or unclear, or perhaps I'm wrong about that.

                Comment


                • #9
                  SPOILERS: Mouse over to see text.

                  My initial dismay was the idea that (based on that misleading two-page spread, which seemed to confuse a lot of other people in addition to me) DC had decided that all of the cool worlds we got to see again in Convergence were now "evolved" into, basically, the New 52 style of them, i.e., Clark and Lois and new baby all sort of morphed into the New 52 versions of them, the classic Earth-2 morphed into the New 52 Earth-2 versions of them, and so on. In the interview the writer specifically said that however it might look there, the whole shebang is indeed still out there, and named Clark and Lois and the baby specifically.

                  I'll have my own headcanon regardless of what DC does, ditto Marvel etc., but I like the idea that I can put Convergence and its tie-ins in as the denouement of the pre-Flashpoint DCU, or at least a part of it, in which Clark and Lois have a kid, Oracle and Nightwing get married, Lian Harper comes back, Ryan Choi comes back, etc. Whether we get to see those characters in new stories published by DC or not, I think this adds nicely to their stories, with effectively happy endings for them. I am even happy to put the (classic) Earth-2 Convergence stuff in as the back history of the Earth-2 we saw during the Infinite Crisis era, with Justice Society Infinity, since at the end of at least one of the two-parters, unlike pre-Crisis Earth-Two or post-Crisis Infinity Inc., the two groups merge, which may have been an intentional nod.

                  This will all, for me, still be in the "past" of the pre-Flashpoint DCU, since we have some other stories set in its future, such as the Last Days of Animal Man, the flash-forward we got in the end of the pre-Flashpoint Superman run, etc. Whether I will put Convergence in before the death of Damien (I'm keeping the post-Flashpoint Morrison Batman Inc. as part of the pre-Flashpoint DCU), or assume that somehow Damien "got better" in time for Convergence, I haven't decided yet. Ditto where precisely I will put the compatible issues of Sensation, Legends of the Dark Knight, and Adventures of Superman. (Some definitely are compatible, like most of LotDK, Gail Simone's Wonder Woman story in Sensation, etc., but some are not, even if they might be very good alternate takes on their own.)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    PS: I agree that Hypertime sums it up best as well (it's effectively "how stories work, but described from the point of view of the fictional characters"), and I wish DC had just stuck with that as its official explanation rather than repeated "worlds will live, worlds will die, etc." again and again. I've never understood why they don't just say, "OK, we're giving our prior continuity a rest now, no one's dead or anything, but here's an all-new take on the characters for the next generation, call it whatever Earth you want," and then do it. I'd even go further and say that I didn't understand why they didn't create the new DCU and just make the prior one into the new Earth-Two, with the older and married (sometimes with kids) Superman, Flash, etc., just as the original Silver Age did with the original Golden Age characters. Heck, since the Justice League disbanded at the end of the last pre-Flashpoint JLA run, it could have left the JSA as the main hero group of that Earth, and we could have had a new version of the old JLA/JSA team-ups, with the new young heroes and their older counterparts...

                    Still, I think the DCU is in a better place than it was pre-Convergence, so I am more or less pleased with the new developments.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                      I was at first dismayed by the end of Convergence #8, but after a clarifying interview, now am pleased, nay, thrilled. Spoilers are in this link.

                      Thoughts?
                      "My " characters are out there again, somewhere. I'm happy with that. Though I'd be happier if they started being used again regularly-particularly the JSA, Infinity Inc and Oracle.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tony ingram View Post
                        "My " characters are out there again, somewhere. I'm happy with that. Though I'd be happier if they started being used again regularly-particularly the JSA, Infinity Inc and Oracle.
                        Agreed.
                        Always remember, Murphy was an optimist
                        Munchkin 1, 2, 4, 7 Super Munchkin 1&2, Munchkin Bites 1&2, Munchkin Fu, Star Munchkin Deluxe and Star 2
                        http://ghornet.deviantart.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                          Whether I will put Convergence in before the death of Damien (I'm keeping the post-Flashpoint Morrison Batman Inc. as part of the pre-Flashpoint DCU), or assume that somehow Damien "got better" in time for Convergence, I haven't decided yet.
                          This is where Batman's continuity gets wonky for the New 52. Technically, Volume 1 of Batman Incorporated is pre-Flashpoint, and Volume 2 of Batman Incorporated is in the New 52... yet, both volumes together essentially comprise one long story arc! How does that work, exactly, hmm...? I think what you have to do is assume that the major story beats and characters, except for minor background details, are essentially nearly identical parallels in both universes. That being the case, then you can probably assume a pre-Flashpoint parallel continuity roughly analogous to the events of the New 52 universe's "Robin Rises" as well. Just insert the pre-Flashpoint version of Cyborg, Darkseid and Apokalips in there. Or maybe not the pre-Flashpoint Cyborg... I'm not sure why he'd have Mother Box tech in him. Well, somehow Batman gets to Apokalips, with or without Cyborg's help, Damian get infused with weird energy, is resurrected, gets superpowers and then loses them, the whole bit.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tony ingram View Post
                            "My " characters are out there again, somewhere. I'm happy with that. Though I'd be happier if they started being used again regularly-particularly the JSA, Infinity Inc and Oracle.
                            And they always were. Flashpoint couldn't undo Hypertime... it's impossible. Even if it was later editorially disavowed and went unused, Hypertime, by its very concept, transcends any "undo" that Flashpoint or any other subsequent event might try to invoke. Just like the X-Files' motto "The Truth Is Out There", Hypertime means "The Comic Book Stories Are Out There", even if you're not seeing them in the comic books or other versions of a DC Multiverse aren't interacting with them.
                            Last edited by pulphero; 06-07-2015, 10:21 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                              I'd even go further and say that I didn't understand why they didn't create the new DCU and just make the prior one into the new Earth-Two, with the older and married (sometimes with kids) Superman, Flash, etc., just as the original Silver Age did with the original Golden Age characters. Heck, since the Justice League disbanded at the end of the last pre-Flashpoint JLA run, it could have left the JSA as the main hero group of that Earth, and we could have had a new version of the old JLA/JSA team-ups, with the new young heroes and their older counterparts...
                              If they were going to do that, they could have done it after Crisis on Infinite Earths. Or after Infinite Crisis.

                              Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                              Still, I think the DCU is in a better place than it was pre-Convergence, so I am more or less pleased with the new developments.
                              Sorry I can't agree... since they no longer publish any of the series I was reading. There didn't seem to be any indication that they were using any of those 2-issue minis as "pilot episodes" for chunks of the old continuities to stage a comeback in an ongoing series, either. Or do you think differently? Convergence might seem like a bit of a belated apology to old school DC fans, but judging by what got launched in its wake, it seems a little insincere, and feels like it was just done as an attempt at tossing a bone of some "closure"... then, back to business as usual.
                              Last edited by pulphero; 06-07-2015, 10:43 AM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X