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DC's Convergence #8 (SPOILERS AHOY!)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by pulphero View Post
    That being the case, then you can probably assume a pre-Flashpoint parallel continuity roughly analogous to the events of the New 52 universe's "Robin Rises" as well.
    I put all of Batman Inc. by Morrison in with the pre-Flashpoint stuff. Definitely not putting an analogue of Robin Rises in there unless DC puts one out. I have mixed feelings about it since Morrison intended the death of Damien (but his heroic triumph over his upbringing in the process) as the finale for Damien.

    (But part of me would love to put Li'l Gotham in as some sort of continuation...)

    Honestly, I think the simplest notion (not that any of this is simple, alas) would have been (1) good ol' Lazarus Pit or (2) having been the offspring of people who've been through the Lazarus Pit too many times, he gets one "come back to life free" card which then burns out as a one-time deal.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by tony ingram View Post
      "My " characters are out there again, somewhere. I'm happy with that. Though I'd be happier if they started being used again regularly-particularly the JSA, Infinity Inc and Oracle.
      Agreed on all counts.

      Originally posted by pulphero View Post
      And they always were. Flashpoint couldn't undo Hypertime... it's impossible. Even if it was later editorially disavowed and went unused, Hypertime, by its very concept, transcends any "undo" that Flashpoint or any other subsequent event might try to invoke. Just like the X-Files' motto "The Truth Is Out There", Hypertime means "The Comic Book Stories Are Out There", even if you're not seeing them in the comic books or other versions of a DC Multiverse aren't interacting with them.
      Agreed on all counts!

      Originally posted by pulphero View Post
      There didn't seem to be any indication that they were using any of those 2-issue minis as "pilot episodes" for chunks of the old continuities to stage a comeback in an ongoing series, either. Or do you think differently?
      I think if DC thought it would sell they'd bring any of those back in a heartbeat. But I don't think they were meant as pilots, no.

      Convergence might seem like a bit of a belated apology to old school DC fans, but judging by what got launched in its wake, it seems a little insincere, and feels like it was just done as an attempt at tossing a bone of some "closure"... then, back to business as usual.
      I don't think it was insincere, but honestly I don't care if editorial meant it to be. The writers like Simone with Oracle and Rucka with Renee, etc. were sincere enough for me.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by pulphero View Post
        Without having read Convergence, you left out some important intermediary events....
        Thank you for the clarification. Hrmm... ok, let me see if I understand this:
        • Pre-Crisis = there were different universes for different heroes
        • Crisis = mashes everyone together into one universe with all the heroes along one single timeline
        • Infinite Crisis = creates a new set of 52 universes for different heroes
        • Flashpoint = destroys main DC timeline and the New 52 Universe is now the main DC timeline of the 52 universes
        • Convergence = turns out, Pre-Crisis, Crisis, Infinite Crisis, and pre-Flashpoint universes were not destroyed after all, they're still out there somewhere


        So does that sum it up? Or did Convergence do something else?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by bobrobertson View Post
          Thank you for the clarification. Hrmm... ok, let me see if I understand this:
          • Pre-Crisis = there were different universes for different heroes
          • Crisis = mashes everyone together into one universe with all the heroes along one single timeline
          • Infinite Crisis = creates a new set of 52 universes for different heroes
          • Flashpoint = destroys main DC timeline and the New 52 Universe is now the main DC timeline of the 52 universes
          • Convergence = turns out, Pre-Crisis, Crisis, Infinite Crisis, and pre-Flashpoint universes were not destroyed after all, they're still out there somewhere


          So does that sum it up? Or did Convergence do something else?
          Just to be clear, the 52 universes of the DC Multiverse (even without considering "the main DC Earth") pre-Flashpoint and post-Flashpoint aren't the same 52 universes. The current 52 universes of the DC Multiverse (of which the "New 52" universe is designated Earth-0) are catalogued in Grant Morrison's The Multiversity Handbook. Some of the universes of The Multiversity appeared (I think) in Convergence, but others (or the surviving cities thereof) seen in Convergence are not part of the current DC Multiverse... unless the ending of Convergence changed that somehow (er... Chast?) Along with the 52 Earths of The Multiversity, there are some other higher/lower dimensions that are part of the structure of the DC Multiverse (New Genesis/Apokolips, Rock of Eternity, etc.). There's a poster representing a 2-dimensional map of that multiversal hypersphere out there (but I forgot where I found it). You can just Google "DC Multiversity Map" and it will turn up in an image search.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by bobrobertson View Post
            Thank you for the clarification. Hrmm... ok, let me see if I understand this:
            • Pre-Crisis = there were different universes for different heroes
            • Crisis = mashes everyone together into one universe with all the heroes along one single timeline
            • Infinite Crisis = creates a new set of 52 universes for different heroes
            • Flashpoint = destroys main DC timeline and the New 52 Universe is now the main DC timeline of the 52 universes
            • Convergence = turns out, Pre-Crisis, Crisis, Infinite Crisis, and pre-Flashpoint universes were not destroyed after all, they're still out there somewhere


            So does that sum it up? Or did Convergence do something else?
            Just to be clear, the 52 universes of the DC Multiverse (even without considering "the main DC Earth") pre-Flashpoint and post-Flashpoint aren't the same 52 universes. The current 52 universes of the DC Multiverse (of which the "New 52" universe is designated Earth 0) are catalogued in Grant Morrison's The Multiversity Handbook. Some of the universes of The Multiversity appeared (I think) in Convergence, but others (or the surviving cities thereof) seen in Convergence are not part of the current DC Multiverse... unless the ending of Convergence changed that somehow (er... Chast?) Along with the 52 Earths of The Multiversity, there are some other higher/lower dimensions that are part of the structure of the DC Multiverse (New Genesis/Apokolips, Rock of Eternity, etc.). There's a poster representing a 2-dimensional map of that multiversal hypersphere out there (but I forgot where I found it). You can just Google "DC Multiversity Map" and it will turn up in an image search.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by pulphero View Post
              others (or the surviving cities thereof) seen in Convergence are not part of the current DC Multiverse... unless the ending of Convergence changed that somehow (er... Chast?)
              Kind of, yes:

              http://comicbook.com/2015/05/27/deco...ng-the-finale/

              That asked, do you see them as being basically like the survivors of the first Crisis? Particularly with the Superman/Lois coupling, I could be happy with those characters still being out there somewhere.

              They are. Post-Convergence, Superman, Lois and Jonathan Kent are on an Earth somewhere, right now, resuming their lives that were on hold since Flashpoint.

              Is it safe to assume that there is an infinite mutliverse again rather than just 52 worlds? And if so, even if the primary worlds are "evolved" into their New 52 counterparts, does that suggest that there's probably another one just like it out there somewhere?

              Yes, In Convergence #8 we reference Multiversity and show you some of the Post-Convergence worlds that make up the reconstituted DC Multiverse. In many ways, the number of Worlds is now infinite. There may even be more than one Multiverse.

              "I have knowledge they existed," says Brainiac of the Earth-2 heroes as he tries to wipe them out. Is that a bit meta? When DC wipes out a world from the multiverse the response of creators is often "nobody took those books off my shelf; it's still there."

              Convergence speaks to that directly. In his way, Brainiac represents a collected experience of all the creators, and by extension readers, of DC Comics. Ever. I've said this a few times during panels and interviews and his is what I meant: Post-Convergence, every character that ever existed, in either Continuity or Canon, is now available to us as storytellers. You may not see them right away, but they are out there. And of course, when you get to the end of Convergence you understand that is more than meta, it is concrete as well.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by bobrobertson View Post
                Thank you for the clarification. Hrmm... ok, let me see if I understand this:
                • Pre-Crisis = there were different universes for different heroes
                • Crisis = mashes everyone together into one universe with all the heroes along one single timeline
                • Infinite Crisis = creates a new set of 52 universes for different heroes
                • Flashpoint = destroys main DC timeline and the New 52 Universe is now the main DC timeline of the 52 universes
                • Convergence = turns out, Pre-Crisis, Crisis, Infinite Crisis, and pre-Flashpoint universes were not destroyed after all, they're still out there somewhere


                So does that sum it up? Or did Convergence do something else?
                Also, there's:
                • Zero Hour = One single timeline with some changes, like to Hawkman and Legion
                • Kingdom = Introduces Hypertime and the notion that absolutely everything is out there, somewhere, which actually got away from the "one universe" approach

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                • #23
                  Of course, now I'm wondering where to put the Multiversity and Convergence stuff in relation to each other, since both of them involve different times and dimensions. Or even, for instance, where to put the Earth-pre-Flashpoint (what I actually call Earth-Omega in my own headcanon, because the 52 of the 52 series looks like an omega, and this world has Final Crisis in it) stories from Adventures of Superman, Legends of the Dark Knight, and Sensation Comics, and a few others (like Bloodspell) in reference to all of this. Could Poison Ivy's work feeding Gotham in Convergence be partly because of her encounter with Wonder Woman in Sensation #1 by Simone? Could Damien's being alive in Convergence be because it was before the rest of Batman, Inc.? And so on.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                    Kind of, yes:
                    Is it safe to assume that there is an infinite mutliverse again rather than just 52 worlds? And if so, even if the primary worlds are "evolved" into their New 52 counterparts, does that suggest that there's probably another one just like it out there somewhere?

                    Yes, In Convergence #8 we reference Multiversity and show you some of the Post-Convergence worlds that make up the reconstituted DC Multiverse. In many ways, the number of Worlds is now infinite. There may even be more than one Multiverse.

                    But exactly which "kind of" or which of "many ways", was the question in my mind. Here, Jeff King doesn't seem to be committing to anything other that what Hypertime posits is the case. Are the various Earths seen in Convergence now on an equal footing, going forward, with the others in Morrison's Multiversity? OR... as King seems to be waffling on, are they part of some other DC Multiverse? It would seem the functional difference in travel arrangements, between the former and the latter, is as the difference between where you can get to in a commercial jet, versus where you can get to in a starship.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I'm honestly OK with it either way. Indeed, actually, I think that having it be a different multiverse (or even different multiverses, since the pre-Crisis multiversal setup really had a different approach to it than, say, the Infinite Crisis 52 flavors, er, worlds) would make the most sense.

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                      • #26
                        I finally got a chance to read a few of the 2-issue minis. Each seems more or less like a disposable cog on its own, with all of them spinning off from the point in Convergence #1 where Tellos announces his/its presence to the various domed survivor cities. My observation would be that none of the ones I've read so far are interacting, either with other miniseries under the Convergence umbrella banner, or with the main series itself (with the exception of the obligatory Tellos announcement in each #1 issue of the minis). All of the ones I read were pretty slow starters, with civilian-dressed former heroes playing a waiting game for the first half to three-quarters of the first issue, until the Tellos announcement results in the restoration of superpowers and an impending battle with some other domed city. The only silver lining here would be the opportunity (not always exploited to its best potential) for some character insight. That said, it was at least nice to see in most of the #2 issues the return of some much-missed incarnations of classic DC heroes... sort of a final last "hail and farewell" as they ride off into the sunset, presumably never to darken DC's sales charts again.

                        Observation #2: It had always been my contention (even before Hypertime was floated as an idea) that in the post-Crisis wake, each universe of DC's (then-)multiverse experienced a different post-Crisis reality from the POV of its own characters... i.e., "We have met and weathered the Crisis, now life goes on." Meanwhile, the mainstream stories published in DC Comics after CoIE told of events from the perspective of a newly-minted universe which merged elements from various other universes in the DC multiverse, complete with backstories, histories and memories for all those multiversal counterparts. On so on down the line, with Zero Hour and Flashpoint, etc. This story would seem to bear that theory out. That stated, the inside front covers of some of the first issues are explicitly stating that two of the domed cities are "Pre-Crisis Earth-Two Metropolis" and "Pre-Crisis Earth-One Gotham City", while the story itself is telling us, in contradiction, that the inhabitants of those domed cities remember participating in a Crisis (so... Post-Crisis).

                        Question: Is Convergence trying to hint that the various domed cities were plucked from those universes of post-apocalyptic multiversal events? But if that were the case, then what became of the rest of those universes (since their inhabitants would obviously remember surviving a previous multiversal event? Or is it somehow being hinted that they were plucked from past multiverses at the moment just before being "erased"? (I've not yet read the main series, and have only gotten as far as a half-dozen of the minis so far.) Side note - this still doesn't account for the events of The Last Days of the Justice Society. Question #2: Was the universe formerly known as "the New 52" involved in Convergence in any way? Futures End seemed to hint that the Convergence event was forthcoming in the N52U (5 years hence), but all of the other domed cities seemed to have been (subjectively) under glass for a period of one year from whatever post-event they happened to have been plucked from. Or did the final issue of Futures End result in Tim Drake/Batman altering the timeline of the New 52 DCU so that none of the Convergence events would affect that timeline? Having also now read the first 3 issues of Batman Beyond, it's a pretty terrible reboot. I really wanted to like it too, and was prepared to give Dan Jurgens the benefit of the doubt, but I have to call them as I see them.

                        Opinion: Having scanned/skimmed a few of the post-Convergence titles, I've never been less interested in what DC is offering in terms of its mainline comics universe. It isn't even that it's so awful on the level of craft or execution, just in tone and conception. I feel nothing but revulsion.
                        Last edited by pulphero; 08-06-2015, 07:18 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                          I finally got a chance to read a few of the 2-issue minis. Each seems more or less like a disposable cog on its own, with all of them spinning off from the point in Convergence #1 where Tellos announces his/its presence to the various domed survivor cities. My observation would be that none of the ones I've read so far are interacting, either with other miniseries under the Convergence umbrella banner, or with the main series itself (with the exception of the obligatory Tellos announcement in each #1 issue of the minis). All of the ones I read were pretty slow starters, with civilian-dressed former heroes playing a waiting game for the first half to three-quarters of the first issue, until the Tellos announcement results in the restoration of superpowers and an impending battle with some other domed city. The only silver lining here would be the opportunity (not always exploited to its best potential) for some character insight. That said, it was at least nice to see in most of the #2 issues the return of some much-missed incarnations of classic DC heroes... sort of a final last "hail and farewell" as they ride off into the sunset, presumably never to darken DC's sales charts again.
                          I would generally agree, albeit I don't see them as disposable cogs as much as one of the big things I loved about it. I do agree that the whole sense of "Wow, it's been a year! Here comes Telos' speech! We have our powers back! Now fight!" got a tad repetitive.

                          Observation #2: It had always been my contention (even before Hypertime was floated as an idea) that in the post-Crisis wake, each universe of DC's (then-)multiverse experienced a different post-Crisis reality from the POV of its own characters... i.e., "We have met and weathered the Crisis, now life goes on."
                          I can see that. Yay for headcanon! Of course I posted my own big massive approach to that before, and if anyone missed it, please let me know and I'll post the link again.

                          Meanwhile, the mainstream stories published in DC Comics after CoIE told of events from the perspective of a newly-minted universe which merged elements from various other universes in the DC multiverse, complete with backstories, histories and memories for all those multiversal counterparts. On so on down the line, with Zero Hour and Flashpoint, etc. This story would seem to bear that theory out. That stated, the inside front covers of some of the first issues are explicitly stating that two of the domed cities are "Pre-Crisis Earth-Two Metropolis" and "Pre-Crisis Earth-One Gotham City", while the story itself is telling us, in contradiction, that the inhabitants of those domed cities remember participating in a Crisis (so... Post-Crisis).

                          Question: Is Convergence trying to hint that the various domed cities were plucked from those universes of post-apocalyptic multiversal events? But if that were the case, then what became of the rest of those universes (since their inhabitants would obviously remember surviving a previous multiversal event? Or is it somehow being hinted that they were plucked from past multiverses at the moment just before being "erased"? (I've not yet read the main series, and have only gotten as far as a half-dozen of the minis so far.)
                          I think so, maybe, but I'm not sure. I believe some of the writers of the two-issue stories have said that they were given specific guidelines about what they could or couldn't do, but not a lot of real information about the actual Convergence series, which may explain some vagueness. I do recommend reading the actual series, by the way.

                          Side note - this still doesn't account for the events of The Last Days of the Justice Society.
                          Nor various other things...

                          Question #2: Was the universe formerly known as "the New 52" involved in Convergence in any way?
                          Kind of briefly, in the main series, looking at the events on the planet, but not as part of Battleworld.

                          Futures End seemed to hint that the Convergence event was forthcoming in the N52U (5 years hence), but all of the other domed cities seemed to have been (subjectively) under glass for a period of one year from whatever post-event they happened to have been plucked from. Or did the final issue of Futures End result in Tim Drake/Batman altering the timeline of the New 52 DCU so that none of the Convergence events would affect that timeline?
                          The latter, so the main New 52 DCU Earth was not in Convergence, but the unaltered Futures End timeline was in it, now as its own alternate Earth, or at least I think that's what happened.

                          Having also now read the first 3 issues of Batman Beyond, it's a pretty terrible reboot. I really wanted to like it too, and was prepared to give Dan Jurgens the benefit of the doubt, but I have to call them as I see them.
                          I'm enjoying it because it's Jurgens, but honestly, I'd have been more than happy for the "evil Brother Eye making heroes into ghastly cyborg bug people" thing to just Not Be There At All. Indeed, it would have been really nice to see that somehow Tim's actions helped Brother Eye to develop a real conscience, and be the one making something like the classic OMAC as a hero in the World That's Coming.

                          Opinion: Having scanned/skimmed a few of the post-Convergence titles, I've never been less interested in what DC is offering in terms of its mainline comics universe. It isn't even that it's so awful on the level of craft or execution, just in tone and conception. I feel nothing but revulsion.
                          I'm honestly in the opposite camp--I haven't liked the current DCU as much since before the New 52. (I, um, still prefer the pre-New 52 DCU, though, and I still can't really see this universe as other than a sort of Elseworlds version of The Real Thing.) But a lot of that has to do with the creative teams.

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                          • #28
                            Nothing to do with DC, but I'll simply let Convergence and Multiversity serve as "the Last Word" on a comic book multiverse once beloved. That, and various reprint collections like those DC 75th Anniversary hardcover collections.

                            But where one door closes, a couple of new ones open. Since purchasing a tablet, new comic reading options become available (or practical, I should say, for me), like every now-public domain comic book once published by a now-defunct company -- and it hardly matters if the company is legally dead, or merely (as in DC's case) "dead to me". Over at these websites, there's still another 20+ years of comics waiting to be read:

                            http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/index.php

                            http://comicbookplus.com/

                            http://furycomics.com/

                            I'm having a blast downloading my own cherry-picked archival compilations of stories/characters from the many Golden Age anthology titles published by MLJ, Nedor, Fiction House, Harvey, Charlton, Lev Gleason, Centaur, Eastern Color, Avon, Columbia, Dell, Fawcett, etc. etc. etc. Good stuff. Now instead of merely bemoaning the lack of DE's publishing any of the Project Superpowers characters, I can read and download their original Golden Age adventures. Same with MLJ's Hangman, Web, Shield, Black Hood, etc. Read and dowloaded JPEG images, tucked away in little file folders, sorted by characters, for future re-reading.


                            And over here (if you're willing to pay the comparative pittance of $9/year), you can read just about every Phantom comic ever published in English (or at least 699 of them):
                            -- Just as an example. There's plenty more eBooks that you can squeeze out of that $9 donation per year.

                            http://www.ebooklibrary.org/results....lterPublisher=
                            Last edited by pulphero; 08-06-2015, 02:14 PM.

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                            • #29
                              I wish someone would collect and print a lot of those Golden Age comics. Someday...

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                                I wish someone would collect and print a lot of those Golden Age comics. Someday...
                                It happens.

                                Fantagraphics reprinted some in its Basil Wolverton collections SPACEHAWK, CREEPING DEATH FROM NEPTUNE, and CULTURE CORNER. They've also done a couple of volumes of THE BILL EVERETT ARCHIVES and half-a-dozen of THE STEVE DITKO ARCHIVES, all '40s and '50s material. The Golden Age works of artist Fletcher Hanks were reprinted in the collections I Shall Destroy All Civilized Planets! and You Shall Die by Your Own Evil Creation!.

                                Some more random samplings of Golden Age hero oddities and obscura can be found in the books SUPERHEROES! and THE LEAGUE OF REGRETTABLE SUPERHEROES, while more of a smorgasbord of comic genres can be found in Dan Nadel's anthologies ART OUT OF TIME and ART IN TIME. A survey of significant Golden Age superheroines can be found in Mike Madrid's DIVAS, DAMES & DAREDEVILS, and supervillainesses in the same author's VIXENS, VAMPS, & VIPERS.

                                Craig Yoe of YoeBooks is reprinting the 1950s POPEYE comics of Bud Sagendorf, the Golden Age works of Ted 'Boody' Rogers in BOODY, and some public domain romance and horror stories in his WEIRD LOVE and HAUNTED HORROR series.

                                Dark Horse Archives reprinted Golden Age comics in its Captain Midnight Archives, Green Lama Archives, Silver Streak Archives, and Daredevil Archives, and has also reprinted volumes of Charles Biro's CRIME DOES NOT PAY and Bob Powell's CAVE GIRL. Dark Horse now has the EC Archives collections formerly produced by Gemstone (Diamond Distributors), while Fantagraphics is taking an artist-centric approach with its black-and-white EC Artists series. DC is doing the same with a series of artist collections from MAD, while Vanguard Productions' David Spurlock has collected nearly all of Wally Wood's non-EC 1950s output in the anthologies STRANGE WORLDS OF SCIENCE FICTION and EERIE TALES OF CRIME AND HORROR.

                                PS ArtBooks has a ton of them, including nearly all the Harvey Comics horror titles, a series of short-run titles of SF/horror comics in its Pre-Code Classics series, and titles like THE HEAP, PHANTOM LADY, SHEENA, RULAH, PLANET COMICS, Dick Briefer's FRANKENSTEIN, and Dick Ayers' GHOST RIDER, under the banner of Roy Thomas Presents.

                                That's just a brief sampling of some of the major high points, not anything resembling a representative listing.

                                The only limits here are time and money. I can't mail you the money to buy them, or create for you the time to read them... all I can do is give you the links so you can read them online or download them for free.
                                Last edited by pulphero; 08-09-2015, 06:16 AM.

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