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  • Er, what major plot-hole are we talking about now?

    Regarding charges of racism, this has been debated for years. On the one hand, ERB was a product of his times. It's hard to find ANY example of black people portrayed in the pulps (at least the early ones) that isn't tinged with racism in some respect. This stereotyping persisted in both comic books and movies well into the 1950s. It's true that Tarzan at first views the black tribesmen with suspicion and even outright hatred. But on the other hand, he was raised by apes and knew nothing of human society, and one of the first black men he encountered killed his ape foster mother! In later books, Tarzan still doesn't have a very high regard for humanity in general (Jane and D'Arnot excepted), but he often ran afoul of some of its worst examples. Then again, of the few recurring characters in the books, Tarzan befriends and becomes chief of the Waziri tribe, whom he obviously respects, and it's fair to say he regards them more highly than humankind in general.

    Later comic adaptations of Tarzan seemed (to me) to excise most of the racist aspects present in the novels. Perhaps the most insulting adaptation (although a very good one in most other respects) was the Filmation animated series Tarzan, Lord of the Jungle that managed to produce two seasons of a show set in Africa in which no black Africans appeared (!), thus proving that you can take the "avoiding the racist aspects" angle too far. I certainly hope DE's LotJ doesn't intend to convince us that Tarzan never manages to run into any black tribesmen in the whole of his adventuring in Africa.

    When dealing with historical fiction, it's tempting to try to apply modern sensibilities to cultural attitudes of the past to avoid offending people, but often what you end up with is a product completely divorced from historical reality, like the movie version of The Wild Wild West.
    Last edited by positronic; 05-12-2012, 09:23 AM.
    DE pull list: Will Eisner's The Spirit: The Corpse Makers, ERB's The Greatest Adventure, Green Hornet '66 Meets The Spirit, PSP: Herokillers, KISS/Vampirella, Mighty Mouse

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    • The only racism I got out of issue #4 was when they called the cook a "Negress", but that's a whole lot better than referring to her a "Black Skin", or something along the lines like that. I thought it was done fairly tastefully.
      Dynamite Entertainment
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      • Ralok was referring to the fact that Esmeralda, in ERB's book, was a far more stereotyped depiction of a black character, and the fact that LotJ has replaced ERB's racially stereotyped depiction of African tribesmen with a race of fantasy man-apes. On average, however, over the course of ERB's series, I find that black characters probably get better treatment than they did in many other pulp stories of the time.
        DE pull list: Will Eisner's The Spirit: The Corpse Makers, ERB's The Greatest Adventure, Green Hornet '66 Meets The Spirit, PSP: Herokillers, KISS/Vampirella, Mighty Mouse

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        • that is one of the most interesting things about ERBs mars, the fact that everyone is naked but they never make a big deal about it!

          One thing I find odd about the white apes is that it feels really drawn out compared to the other mini-series

          it definitly feels like the story would be better suited for an annual than spread out over 5 issues
          Last edited by Ralok; 05-12-2012, 04:32 PM.

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          • Originally posted by positronic View Post
            Er, what major plot-hole are we talking about now?

            Regarding charges of racism, this has been debated for years. On the one hand, ERB was a product of his times. It's hard to find ANY example of black people portrayed in the pulps (at least the early ones) that isn't tinged with racism in some respect. This stereotyping persisted in both comic books and movies well into the 1950s. It's true that Tarzan at first views the black tribesmen with suspicion and even outright hatred. But on the other hand, he was raised by apes and knew nothing of human society, and one of the first black men he encountered killed his ape foster mother! In later books, Tarzan still doesn't have a very high regard for humanity in general (Jane and D'Arnot excepted), but he often ran afoul of some of its worst examples. Then again, of the few recurring characters in the books, Tarzan befriends and becomes chief of the Waziri tribe, whom he obviously respects, and it's fair to say he regards them more highly than humankind in general.

            Later comic adaptations of Tarzan seemed (to me) to excise most of the racist aspects present in the novels. Perhaps the most insulting adaptation (although a very good one in most other respects) was the Filmation animated series Tarzan, Lord of the Jungle that managed to produce two seasons of a show set in Africa in which no black Africans appeared (!), thus proving that you can take the "avoiding the racist aspects" angle too far. I certainly hope DE's LotJ doesn't intend to convince us that Tarzan never manages to run into any black tribesmen in the whole of his adventuring in Africa.

            When dealing with historical fiction, it's tempting to try to apply modern sensibilities to cultural attitudes of the past to avoid offending people, but often what you end up with is a product completely divorced from historical reality, like the movie version of The Wild Wild West.
            I am talking about the plothole about Tarzans name

            in the book he writes "Tarzan" on the note on the door, but he had no way of knowing that the sounds in his name corresponded to letters, but he did know that his name meant "White Skin" so logically he would have wrote white skin on the note . . . but he didnt.

            it was a huuuuuuuuuuuge plothole in the book

            for now I am okay with them using ape-men to replace afrricans (whether they are from opar or pellucidar, although opar is a bit closer), but having no black folk appear ever would be very very very very weird.

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            • Originally posted by positronic View Post
              Ralok was referring to the fact that Esmeralda, in ERB's book, was a far more stereotyped depiction of a black character, and the fact that LotJ has replaced ERB's racially stereotyped depiction of African tribesmen with a race of fantasy man-apes. On average, however, over the course of ERB's series, I find that black characters probably get better treatment than they did in many other pulp stories of the time.
              I am going to agree with this assessment, the depiction of them was . . . cartoonish almost in the first book and a half . . . somewhere in the second book it feels like ERB said "I cant keep this up anymore"

              of course he still place an odd emphasis on physical traits vs skin color, it wasnt about skin color . . .

              Please dont take this as any accusation of racism on my part

              But ERB described them as increasingly more ape-like, the more savage and unintelligent the people were, and what I mean is he used the word "Ape" in the description of them > _ >

              very awkward to read in the 21st century

              Interestingly though, this wasnt about skin color it seemed . . . because the people of opar, they have white skin. The males of their races are practically apes (females normal Caucasians I guess)

              I dont know if this was typical for the day, but it seems that it was to him about "how they were shaped" not "the color of their skin"

              I . . . dont know what to think about it of course > _> It gets less and less with each tarzan book it seems

              this was the reason I never believed that the Black Men of barsoom ever resembled earth africans, ERB was definitely NOT shy in his description of people of African descent, and none of the terms or ways he described them are present in the barsoom books in regards to the First Born.

              I am going to drop the whole "racism thing" now, because it is really uncomfortable to talk about . . . . really really uncomfortable

              Only one last thought, I think dynamite is handling it as well as can be expected

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              • Five issues? The description for issue four reads: "The harrowing horror epic's explosive conclusion!"

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                • ERB's Balza the Jungle Girl appear in Tarzan?

                  Will Balza the Jungle Girl appear in the new Tarzan series? Or Jane will become Balza?

                  Balza or Jane when she lives with Tarzan should look something like this jungle costume:

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Last edited by Comic2read; 05-12-2012, 09:25 PM.
                  Comic2read

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                  • Originally posted by Largo View Post
                    Five issues? The description for issue four reads: "The harrowing horror epic's explosive conclusion!"
                    huh . . . that is going to be a thing TPB

                    maybe they will include the first annual to bolster it!

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                    • Originally posted by Ralok View Post
                      I am talking about the plothole about Tarzans name

                      in the book he writes "Tarzan" on the note on the door, but he had no way of knowing that the sounds in his name corresponded to letters, but he did know that his name meant "White Skin" so logically he would have wrote white skin on the note . . . but he didnt.

                      it was a huuuuuuuuuuuge plothole in the book
                      Given the framework of the story, where the ERB character tells us at the beginning that he is relating a true story in fictionalized form, he explains that he has simplified some things for the purpose of the reader and changed some things to protect Tarzan's true identity. Thus "Lord Greystoke" isn't really Lord Greystoke, etc. "The names have been changed to protect the innocent", etc. Since he's already explained to the reader the origin of the Tarzan name, I give him a pass as simplifying the written note left by Tarzan as just making things clearer for the reader. Of course this whole idea of "fiction based on a true story" led Philip Jose Farmer to write Tarzan Alive.

                      Where the plot-holes get really big is starting with the time frame in The Son of Tarzan.
                      Last edited by positronic; 05-13-2012, 12:47 AM.
                      DE pull list: Will Eisner's The Spirit: The Corpse Makers, ERB's The Greatest Adventure, Green Hornet '66 Meets The Spirit, PSP: Herokillers, KISS/Vampirella, Mighty Mouse

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                      • Balza?? Thought I was familiar with all of ERB's characters, and I've never heard of this one. What book does she appear in?

                        That looks like Vampirella and Sheena (although the outfit isn't really right). Still wondering what Vampi might have been doing in the jungle.

                        Jane Porter-Clayton never really does the jungle girl thing in ERB's books. If she did in DE's Lord of the Jungle it would have to be a very liberal interpretation.
                        Last edited by positronic; 05-13-2012, 01:20 AM.
                        DE pull list: Will Eisner's The Spirit: The Corpse Makers, ERB's The Greatest Adventure, Green Hornet '66 Meets The Spirit, PSP: Herokillers, KISS/Vampirella, Mighty Mouse

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                        • I believe she is from a later tarzan

                          I dont think she is jane . . . no reason for that . . .

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                          • Originally posted by positronic View Post
                            Given the framework of the story, where the ERB character tells us at the beginning that he is relating a true story in fictionalized form, he explains that he has simplified some things for the purpose of the reader and changed some things to protect Tarzan's true identity. Thus "Lord Greystoke" isn't really Lord Greystoke, etc. "The names have been changed to protect the innocent", etc. Since he's already explained to the reader the origin of the Tarzan name, I give him a pass as simplifying the written note left by Tarzan as just making things clearer for the reader. Of course this whole idea of "fiction based on a true story" led Philip Jose Farmer to write Tarzan Alive.

                            Where the plot-holes get really big is starting with the time frame in The Son of Tarzan.
                            I can imagine with as many tarzan books as he wrote that there are a whooooooooole bunch of plot-holes . . . probably even power rangers level plot-holes!!

                            I have noticed a few others but the only one taht has bugged me is the one concerning the note.

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                            • I will say this . . . it feels more . . . honest . . . than other tarzan adaptions . . . if that makes any sense

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                              • Generally, I liked this issue. I like the developing relationship between Tarzan and Jane, and the introduction of the french sailors. Just how brutual the apes behave is now starting to come to light. It is shaping up to be an intense coming. Also like the art and brilliant colors on it.

                                I was kind of confused about Tarzan telling Jane he is white skin while he told Clayton he wasnt. Only thing I can figure out was that Clayton was talking to Tarzan while Jane was writing. Tarzan only speaks ape.

                                I was caught off gaurd by the opening pages with the depiction of cannabilism aboard the Arrow. At first, I thought that maybe this was a stranded ship and the apes attacked it. But then I realized this ship was stranded at sea. Apes dont like water and have no way to get out there. So I am back to cannabilism and wondering how that fits in. If it was just for shock value, then I would prefer they skip it.

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