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The King Watch/Flash Gordon/Phantom/Mandrake MEGATHREAD!

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  • Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
    And now it comes full circle, as Bat-Mite tries to get Brave and the Bold cancelled by foisting toy-company-mandated merchandise onto Batman:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H94FHVGeEE
    I LOVED that show, and really miss it. What a great ending though, to 5 whole seasons of Silver Age DC goodness. The WB/DC animation team really tapped into that whole father-son bonding "fan family" thing with this show.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ralphuniverse View Post
      I like the internet legend idea but really, he should have minimal, if any, specialised tech. I can't think of any of the Phantoms using anything but the technology of their generation. The Phantom is really a big strong man with a sharp mind. But if you start giving him high tech gadgets he will end up Batman.

      I would give him minimalist now-tech upgrades. Some light weight body armour, weapons upgrade (I'm ok with swapping one of the pistols with a tazer)
      See, I DON'T like the "internet legend" idea. I think the Phantom would leave the internet to the internet. I believe his natural inclination is to remain a low-tech guy who does things the traditional way that his ancestors did. There's a problem with that, though, because the more high-powered criminals (and you were talking about having some re-occurring Batman-level -- or more likely, James Bond-level -- villains built up in new stories) are NOT going to play by those old-fashioned low-tech rules. Phantom doesn't WANT to go that route in terms of overt or aggressive tech, but to the extent that he can use passive technology covertly, without APPEARING to use technology, to NEUTRALIZE the bad guys' advantage over him, while simultaneously (and this is the most important aspect) preserving the legend of the Ghost Who Walks and the Man Who Cannot Die that his ancestors sacrificed their lives and spent hundreds of years building up, he WILL do that. So what we are living in (except for the areas of the world that are not up-to-date, civilization-wise) is a world where CCTV camera surveillance, global comsat instant communications, computer imaging, data and information anaylsis, is everywhere... and high-powered baddies are certainly going to use that to their advantage in defeating the Phantom. In order to maintain the legend in this world of technology that his ancestors never had to deal with, he would come up with passive, counteractive systems to reduce or obliterate any hard data that could be collected on him... that includes never being photographed if he can help it, wiping out any hard data acquired about him (physical description, methods of operation, patterns of movement, etc.), and so forth. He'd also want to be able to communicate with Guran in the Skull Cave, Diana, his fellow King heroes, etc. and he's going to need technology for that, BUT he can't be seen by anyone taking a normal cell phone out of his belt or boot and making (or taking) a call. Can't he just use his spooky supernatural powers to communicate? But of course he doesn't really have any... but he doesn't need that to be obvious to anyone else. He can have small tools hidden in his boot or belt for emergencies, he just doesn't use them in front of anyone.

      So right, avoid it to the extent that he doesn't get bogged down in gizmos and gadgets and wind up like Batman or Sam Fisher (from the game Splinter Cell). To all appearances, he should look and behave just as his ancestors did. If he's going to get suit upgrades, it shouldn't make the suit look any different or "more dangerous", or "more realistic" (or whatever they want to call it) or any of that comic book nonsense. While I certainly don't believe it's the SAME exact costume that the Bandar tribesmen originally gave to the first Phantom, there's something almost sacred about that costume (design) to the Walkers. Whenever we see a flashback to an ancestor from the Phantom Chronicles, to all appearances it could be the present-day Phantom... except for the pistols. Everything else looks exactly the same. A layer of Kevlar under the costume that's undetectable to the naked eye is one thing, but he can't be seen by anyone to be wearing any sort of OBVIOUS 'lightweight body armor', even if he's operating under the assumption that his enemies have already dismissed "the legend" as pure bunk... obvious body armor would put the lie to that legend right away, and he STILL needs to maintain 'plausible deniability' in that regard, to honor his ancestors. He can't very well just say "To hell with it, nobody believes the hype anyway -- the important thing is that I stay alive to continue the fight". Essentially, he doesn't really want to do anything in front of people (the Bandar tribesmen and his fellow King heroes excepted) whether it be a simple thing like eating, reloading his pistols, using tasers, or using a cell phone that makes him appear to be "merely human". He probably knows someone with hacking skills that could create viral 'data worms' to propagate throughout the internet to recognize and erase any data that exists on him, though. He would use technology to ERASE whatever "data footprint" exists on the Phantom. The stories themselves shouldn't overly focus on any of that stuff, though -- it could be mentioned in passing, it doesn't need to involve all sorts of detailed scenes explaining it.
      Last edited by pulphero; 10-20-2014, 05:23 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
        I LOVED that show, and really miss it. What a great ending though, to 5 whole seasons of Silver Age DC goodness. The WB/DC animation team really tapped into that whole father-son bonding "fan family" thing with this show.
        Agreed on all counts.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
          See, I DON'T like the "internet legend" idea. I think the Phantom would leave the internet to the internet. I believe his natural inclination is to remain a low-tech guy who does things the traditional way that his ancestors did. There's a problem with that, though, because the more high-powered criminals (and you were talking about having some re-occurring Batman-level -- or more likely, James Bond-level -- villains built up in new stories) are NOT going to play by those old-fashioned low-tech rules. Phantom doesn't WANT to go that route in terms of overt or aggressive tech, but to the extent that he can use passive technology covertly, without APPEARING to use technology, to NEUTRALIZE the bad guys' advantage over him, while simultaneously (and this is the most important aspect) preserving the legend of the Ghost Who Walks and the Man Who Cannot Die that his ancestors sacrificed their lives and spent hundreds of years building up, he WILL do that. So what we are living in (except for the areas of the world that are not up-to-date, civilization-wise) is a world where CCTV camera surveillance, global comsat instant communications, computer imaging, data and information anaylsis, is everywhere... and high-powered baddies are certainly going to use that to their advantage in defeating the Phantom. In order to maintain the legend in this world of technology that his ancestors never had to deal with, he would come up with passive, counteractive systems to reduce or obliterate any hard data that could be collected on him... that includes never being photographed if he can help it, wiping out any hard data acquired about him (physical description, methods of operation, patterns of movement, etc.), and so forth. He'd also want to be able to communicate with Guran in the Skull Cave, Diana, his fellow King heroes, etc. and he's going to need technology for that, BUT he can't be seen by anyone taking a normal cell phone out of his belt or boot and making (or taking) a call. Can't he just use his spooky supernatural powers to communicate? But of course he doesn't really have any... but he doesn't need that to be obvious to anyone else. He can have small tools hidden in his boot or belt for emergencies, he just doesn't use them in front of anyone.

          So right, avoid it to the extent that he doesn't get bogged down in gizmos and gadgets and wind up like Batman or Sam Fisher (from the game Splinter Cell). To all appearances, he should look and behave just as his ancestors did. If he's going to get suit upgrades, it shouldn't make the suit look any different or "more dangerous", or "more realistic" (or whatever they want to call it) or any of that comic book nonsense. While I certainly don't believe it's the SAME exact costume that the Bandar tribesmen originally gave to the first Phantom, there's something almost sacred about that costume (design) to the Walkers. Whenever we see a flashback to an ancestor from the Phantom Chronicles, to all appearances it could be the present-day Phantom... except for the pistols. Everything else looks exactly the same. A layer of Kevlar under the costume that's undetectable to the naked eye is one thing, but he can't be seen by anyone to be wearing any sort of OBVIOUS 'lightweight body armor', even if he's operating under the assumption that his enemies have already dismissed "the legend" as pure bunk... obvious body armor would put the lie to that legend right away, and he STILL needs to maintain 'plausible deniability' in that regard, to honor his ancestors. He can't very well just say "To hell with it, nobody believes the hype anyway -- the important thing is that I stay alive to continue the fight". Essentially, he doesn't really want to do anything in front of people (the Bandar tribesmen and his fellow King heroes excepted) whether it be a simple thing like eating, reloading his pistols, using tasers, or using a cell phone that makes him appear to be "merely human". He probably knows someone with hacking skills that could create viral 'data worms' to propagate throughout the internet to recognize and erase any data that exists on him, though. He would use technology to ERASE whatever "data footprint" exists on the Phantom. The stories themselves shouldn't overly focus on any of that stuff, though -- it could be mentioned in passing, it doesn't need to involve all sorts of detailed scenes explaining it.
          I think a summary of the posts regarding the Phantom is that we seem to be ok with practical upgrades to the Phantom's tools as long as he is not flying around like high-tech Iron Man armors or the movie Batman costumes. DC's Batwing tried this and failed. We seem to be ok with practical but minimalist upgrades to costume (kevlar under uniform, maybe a low grade EMP to "ghost" his presence, use of internet without others watching, etc). I just hope that the Phantom stories provide the justice some of us are craving when we read what is happening in the countries of Africa. Sure there are heroes in those countries, like the lady who is creating a orphanage for Ebola victims' children, but the hook of a masked hero like the Phantom is that he can do what we all wish we could do for the people of Africa (someone to stop the 98 elephants dying each year, someone to stop the extremist cult of Muslims kidnapping school girls in northern Nigeria, someone to stop people like Joseph Kony near the Republic of Congo, someone to stop the pirates of Somolia, etc.).

          I just read FLASH GORDON #6 by Parker, Shaner, and Bellaire--awesome!!! I bought the Roberto Castro and Adriano Lucas cover as it was a special 80th anniversary cover--great covers and great dynamic action of Flash with sword in hand in action against monsters of Ming the Merciless (Before Thanos, Before Darkseid, Before countless other alien conquerors--Ming conquered all!). Great character interplay in the story of Flash and company meeting the Hawkmen of Mongo's empire! Several humorous nods to the Sam Jones/Flash Gordon movie involving King Vulcan. I am pleased that DE is continuing the continuity of Flash Gordon in the upcoming Annual, special, and mini-series. Jeff Parker created a great contemporary continuity for all the King heroes to fall into and explore! I can not wait for 2015!!!

          The most interesting of the new mini-series characters is Jungle Jim. Instead of taking place in Congo or India jungles as the comic strip did, it is taking place on the Mongo empire's Arboria. This decision by DE frees the creators without having to tip toe around the politically incorrect characteristics of a jungle hero (whether it be Tarzan, Jungle Jim, or the Phantom)--how to portray the natives the hero encounters, whether animals can be killed without environmentalists/animal-rights activists complain about killing off endangered species, and the economic-political realities of countries of Africa (sometimes the Black Panther's make-believe country tends to leap the reality of the real world) are examples of the characteristics that this version of Jungle Jim will escape as now he will be able to kill fantastic creatures in the traditional jungle hero manner without the handicaps the creators might have encountered had they brought him back in a traditional earth jungle. In a way, it is the same kind of freedom that creators of 2000 A.D.'s Rogue Trooper has on war stories (not hampered by history or death counts of history's wars and their outcomes). I am looking forward to this type of jungle hero!

          Comment


          • You're dead-on about the wealth of story material that can be generated spinning off of real-world contemporary issues going on in modern Africa. That's a type of story that most other comics characters aren't going to be involved in, because it's so far removed from their normal environment. Perfect for the Phantom, though.

            Also right about the sensitivity issues in updating a character like Jungle Jim. It's going to be strange seeing him in the alien jungle/swamp setting of Arboria, which should present some unusual challenges to his normal skills, honed entirely on Earth. I didn't get the impression that DE was planning on making him a permanent resident there, but who knows, you may be right... guess we'll have to wait and see, and whether he can prove enough of a sales success for DE to continue beyond the initial limited series.

            Those obviously delicate issues made JJ a surprise choice IMO, when it would have seemed a lot easier and more obvious a choice to go with an espionage character like X-9/Corrigan.

            Comment


            • G'day,

              The only problem I have with the Phantom taking on contemporary issues is that the writers prejudices can make a farce of it. Example "Epilogue" in Frew 1697 which was originally published in the Scandinavian Phantom. Back in the 70's the Phantom often came up against the racist white rulers of the fictional country Rodia (obviously the former Rhodesia). Fine, having him take on white supremacist back then made sense. No problems with that. But in Epilogue he's back in Rodia and the former white security force are trying to overthrow the nice black African government. How cowardly can you get. The former Rhodesia is now of course Zimbabwe run by that murderous dictator Robert Mugabe who has brought nothing but ruin to his people. Surely it would make sense both story wise and morally to have the Phantom take on a black Rodian dictator? But noooo... its those evil white people again.

              ta

              Ralph



              Originally posted by Blinky McQuade View Post
              I think a summary of the posts regarding the Phantom is that we seem to be ok with practical upgrades to the Phantom's tools as long as he is not flying around like high-tech Iron Man armors or the movie Batman costumes. DC's Batwing tried this and failed. We seem to be ok with practical but minimalist upgrades to costume (kevlar under uniform, maybe a low grade EMP to "ghost" his presence, use of internet without others watching, etc). I just hope that the Phantom stories provide the justice some of us are craving when we read what is happening in the countries of Africa. Sure there are heroes in those countries, like the lady who is creating a orphanage for Ebola victims' children, but the hook of a masked hero like the Phantom is that he can do what we all wish we could do for the people of Africa (someone to stop the 98 elephants dying each year, someone to stop the extremist cult of Muslims kidnapping school girls in northern Nigeria, someone to stop people like Joseph Kony near the Republic of Congo, someone to stop the pirates of Somolia, etc.).

              I just read FLASH GORDON #6 by Parker, Shaner, and Bellaire--awesome!!! I bought the Roberto Castro and Adriano Lucas cover as it was a special 80th anniversary cover--great covers and great dynamic action of Flash with sword in hand in action against monsters of Ming the Merciless (Before Thanos, Before Darkseid, Before countless other alien conquerors--Ming conquered all!). Great character interplay in the story of Flash and company meeting the Hawkmen of Mongo's empire! Several humorous nods to the Sam Jones/Flash Gordon movie involving King Vulcan. I am pleased that DE is continuing the continuity of Flash Gordon in the upcoming Annual, special, and mini-series. Jeff Parker created a great contemporary continuity for all the King heroes to fall into and explore! I can not wait for 2015!!!

              The most interesting of the new mini-series characters is Jungle Jim. Instead of taking place in Congo or India jungles as the comic strip did, it is taking place on the Mongo empire's Arboria. This decision by DE frees the creators without having to tip toe around the politically incorrect characteristics of a jungle hero (whether it be Tarzan, Jungle Jim, or the Phantom)--how to portray the natives the hero encounters, whether animals can be killed without environmentalists/animal-rights activists complain about killing off endangered species, and the economic-political realities of countries of Africa (sometimes the Black Panther's make-believe country tends to leap the reality of the real world) are examples of the characteristics that this version of Jungle Jim will escape as now he will be able to kill fantastic creatures in the traditional jungle hero manner without the handicaps the creators might have encountered had they brought him back in a traditional earth jungle. In a way, it is the same kind of freedom that creators of 2000 A.D.'s Rogue Trooper has on war stories (not hampered by history or death counts of history's wars and their outcomes). I am looking forward to this type of jungle hero!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ralphuniverse View Post
                G'day,

                The only problem I have with the Phantom taking on contemporary issues is that the writers prejudices can make a farce of it. Example "Epilogue" in Frew 1697 which was originally published in the Scandinavian Phantom. Back in the 70's the Phantom often came up against the racist white rulers of the fictional country Rodia (obviously the former Rhodesia). Fine, having him take on white supremacist back then made sense. No problems with that. But in Epilogue he's back in Rodia and the former white security force are trying to overthrow the nice black African government. How cowardly can you get. The former Rhodesia is now of course Zimbabwe run by that murderous dictator Robert Mugabe who has brought nothing but ruin to his people. Surely it would make sense both story wise and morally to have the Phantom take on a black Rodian dictator? But noooo... its those evil white people again.

                ta

                Ralph
                Now that would be an interesting story. Especially now that DE's Phantom is Lothar--should the Phantom reverse the actions of a previous Phantom? Obviously, to be consistent the Phantom should fight corruption whoever is behind it. It reminds me of how America supported a group called the Taliban (and trained some guy called Bin Ladin) to fight the Russians (remember Rambo III?) and later we Americans have come to regret that support big time (Zero Dark Thirty). Not to mention the politicians we Americans vote for, only to find out how corrupt or ineffective they are while in office. The only recourse is to vote against them or, in the case of the Taliban, fight against them and hope we get the next situation right. Evil has no skin color.

                Comment


                • G'day,

                  I'm get rather annoyed when people let perceived political correctness blind them to reality. Just whats is wrong with hunting? Here's my variation of Jim "Jungle" Bradley. He is an Australian professional hunter (I think a cross between the late Steve Irwin and Crocodile Dundee would be fun) who originally operated in the Northern Territory shooting feral animals such as wild buffalos (an introduced species that does enormous damage to the local ecology) but now is based in SE Asia. A master bushman he can survive indiffidently in the wild. Jim has lead expeditions to unexplored area in New Guinea (there really are unexplored areas in New Guinea). He has the reputation of being the greatest hunter in the world and has tracked animals thought to be extinct, not to kill them but for science. He has hunted and shoot the fiercest tigers in Asia, the wildest bull elephants in India but with a tranquilizer gun to safely remove the animal from populated areas. His reputation has got him involved in many adventures but always on the side of justice.

                  I'm sure something like that would work. Really people need to get some balls or ovaries and get over this sensitivity crap.

                  ta

                  Ralph



                  Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                  You're dead-on about the wealth of story material that can be generated spinning off of real-world contemporary issues going on in modern Africa. That's a type of story that most other comics characters aren't going to be involved in, because it's so far removed from their normal environment. Perfect for the Phantom, though.

                  Also right about the sensitivity issues in updating a character like Jungle Jim. It's going to be strange seeing him in the alien jungle/swamp setting of Arboria, which should present some unusual challenges to his normal skills, honed entirely on Earth. I didn't get the impression that DE was planning on making him a permanent resident there, but who knows, you may be right... guess we'll have to wait and see, and whether he can prove enough of a sales success for DE to continue beyond the initial limited series.

                  Those obviously delicate issues made JJ a surprise choice IMO, when it would have seemed a lot easier and more obvious a choice to go with an espionage character like X-9/Corrigan.

                  Comment


                  • There's a reason for what you refer to as "sensitivity crap." There's been a hell of a lot of bad stuff from not paying attention to the issues involved, and for a very long time, so a bit more education and "sensitivity" is called for now that we're more aware of these things.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ralphuniverse View Post
                      The only problem I have with the Phantom taking on contemporary issues is that the writers prejudices can make a farce of it. Example "Epilogue" in Frew 1697 which was originally published in the Scandinavian Phantom. Back in the 70's the Phantom often came up against the racist white rulers of the fictional country Rodia (obviously the former Rhodesia). Fine, having him take on white supremacist back then made sense. No problems with that. But in Epilogue he's back in Rodia and the former white security force are trying to overthrow the nice black African government. How cowardly can you get. The former Rhodesia is now of course Zimbabwe run by that murderous dictator Robert Mugabe who has brought nothing but ruin to his people. Surely it would make sense both story wise and morally to have the Phantom take on a black Rodian dictator? But noooo... its those evil white people again.
                      I don't think it's a valid criticism, Ralph. In the 70s the writer was Lee Falk, today Semic is working with different writers. Then the political situation in Rhodesia has changed from the mid-70s to today, but you can't expect the fictional Rodia in the comic stories to exactly parallel those changes in government. So guess what, the racist white supremacists who were toppled from power in the 70s (not such a long time ago in Phantom-story time) are back, and they're still evil, and the black ruler (or his successor) who filled the power vacuum when that racist government was toppled in the 1970s is still not evil. Events in the comic may parallel the real world for one story, but the fictional country isn't beholden to reflect the situation in the real country all the time.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ralphuniverse View Post
                        Really people need to get some balls or ovaries and get over this sensitivity crap.
                        Hope you're not addressing that at ME, Ralph. But the context sure made it seem like you were. I'm merely making the observation that the potential for the situation (critical complaints about JJ's character) obviously exists, I'm not approving or disapproving it. Given that I can see no really strong reason for choosing Jungle Jim to update, over some other KFS character, I would have thought sidestepping any potential critics was the easiest choice to make here. But it would seem that simply by transplanting the character to Arboria, they've come up with a way to sidestep those potential critics anyway.

                        Having only the broadest familiarity with the concept and character, I couldn't even say this or that aspect of Jungle Jim was essential or non-essential to his character or concept anyway. I simply do not know the character, the way I know the Phantom and Flash Gordon, and to a lesser extent, Mandrake and Valiant.
                        Last edited by pulphero; 10-21-2014, 03:05 PM.

                        Comment


                        • G'day,

                          I don't know if Rodia was an invention of Lee Falk or the Fantoman people but really, evil apartheid in 2014? The world has moved on. It felt a bit like the comedian I heard a few months ago who was still telling Clinton/ Monica Lewinsky jokes. If you are going to have the Phantom taking on modern issues then they have to be modern issues, not something from the 1970's. The apartheid regimes of Rhodesia and South Africa are long gone. Let him take on current problems like the reality of African dictators. It would have been far more relevant if the nice African President had been overthrown by an African dictator and was screwing the people like Mugabe. The cynic in me says the writers just didn't have the guts to show blacks in a bad light.

                          ta

                          Ralph

                          Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                          I don't think it's a valid criticism, Ralph. In the 70s the writer was Lee Falk, today Semic is working with different writers. Then the political situation in Rhodesia has changed from the mid-70s to today, but you can't expect the fictional Rodia in the comic stories to exactly parallel those changes in government. So guess what, the racist white supremacists who were toppled from power in the 70s (not such a long time ago in Phantom-story time) are back, and they're still evil, and the black ruler (or his successor) who filled the power vacuum when that racist government was toppled in the 1970s is still not evil. Events in the comic may parallel the real world for one story, but the fictional country isn't beholden to reflect the situation in the real country all the time.

                          Comment


                          • G'day
                            Then how about actually paying attention to those issues? If they have Jungle Jim permanently off planet they would be avoiding the issues not confronting them. Reminds me of the Disney Tarzan animated movie which had animals but no black people. Can't have half naked Negros, it just not "sensitive" (half naked white boy Tarzan is ok). And whats too sensitive with Asia anyway? Have any of you been to say, Singapore? Its about as modern as you can get. How about India? a nation that successfully sent a spacecraft to Mars recently. Again whats sort of problem would there be in having Jungle Jim operate in modern Asia? Colonialism? Been there done that. Environmentalism? Jungle Jim doesn't kill endangered species if he hunts them its to save them not kill them. Is he some bossy Great White Hunter? Well a Great White Hunter he may be but he is not bossy but knows enough about local cultures to have successfully lived there for years.

                            Ralph

                            Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                            There's a reason for what you refer to as "sensitivity crap." There's been a hell of a lot of bad stuff from not paying attention to the issues involved, and for a very long time, so a bit more education and "sensitivity" is called for now that we're more aware of these things.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ralphuniverse View Post
                              I don't know if Rodia was an invention of Lee Falk or the Fantoman people but really, evil apartheid in 2014? The world has moved on. It felt a bit like the comedian I heard a few months ago who was still telling Clinton/ Monica Lewinsky jokes. If you are going to have the Phantom taking on modern issues then they have to be modern issues, not something from the 1970's. The apartheid regimes of Rhodesia and South Africa are long gone. Let him take on current problems like the reality of African dictators. It would have been far more relevant if the nice African President had been overthrown by an African dictator and was screwing the people like Mugabe. The cynic in me says the writers just didn't have the guts to show blacks in a bad light.
                              But not EVERY story is referencing real-world issues, Ralph. Some stories are just entertaining fiction, with no reflection of issues in the real world. And even if the fictional "Rodia" was invented for a past story which reflected real-world issues, it doesn't mean some writer 30 years later has to reflect the real world, if he decides to use that fictional country again in a story. I remember an interview with Lee Falk in which he talked about the fact that he very much enjoyed bringing those real-world issues into his storylines, but he also said he was always mindful of how they impacted the business of the strip itself, citing a couple of different storylines he did which caused papers to drop THE PHANTOM, in some instances it being a case where the story did not go over well in a particular region of the globe that was carrying the Phantom strip.

                              Comment


                              • I think we can also say that while we all admire stories that have something to say about the real world, or take a stand on some issue, there is the other aspect of commerce to consider as well. It's easier for a comic with a relatively small audience to do a story like this, while at the same time, the larger the audience that the story is likely to be exposed to, the likelier that that story may come under critical scrutiny by some portion of the audience -- and of course, the story is first and foremost being sold as an entertainment product, so naturally any criticism that affects the sale of the strip would be of concern to King Features, as THE PHANTOM is sold to an international audience all over the world. We can gripe about it because it isn't "pure art", but in the end, we have to accept it's commercial art.

                                Comment

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