Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Green Hornet series MEGATHREAD!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Ghornet2 View Post
    I understand the need to do a reboot/restart but it I think DC went a little to far. The wiped out 80 years of history.
    But they really didn't. Batgirl, for example, references the Killing Joke in its very first issue. A significant amount of that stuff still happened.

    What they did is give themselves the opportunity to clear out the crap. Power Girl was from Atlantis for a while there? Yeah...let's dump that...

    Of course, one man's garbage...

    Where I do think it's a struggle is that you have to believe that Batman had four different Robin's over the course of about 10 years. Yikes. Compressing all that stuff is a whole other issue.

    Also, you don't really know what's happened and what hasn't. So like I mentioned with Hornet earlier, I suppose you can choose in some cases unless you're told specifically.

    My biggest beef is that there was no DC presence in WW2. That seems...wrong. Also, I understand that some of the characters are not behaving as long-time readers are used to seeing them behave. I can see how that'd be annoying.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
      Also, I understand that some of the characters are not behaving as long-time readers are used to seeing them behave. I can see how that'd be annoying.
      That's honestly my biggest, biggest complaint, and not so much that they're behaving differently as that they're acting--in my belief and considered opinion--like jerks or in some cases far, far worse. But I am sure that this will pass in time and the next reboot, after a much-needed DC regime change, will make things better. (And, please, more accessible to a wider age range.)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ghornet2 View Post
        I understand the need to do a reboot/restart but it I think DC went a little to far. The wiped out 80 years of history.
        They "wiped out" about six years worth of history, if that. (INFINITE CRISIS "rebooted" the Multiverse in '05/'06).

        And, really, you still HAVE all of those comics from the past. They STILL EXIST. You can read them any time you want to to your heart's content. So. really, the "history" hasn't gone anywhere. That's the problem with comic fans...they love in their own little safety boxes and change freaks them out. If you ask me, Batman's still Batman, Superman's still Superman and the only difference with the "mystical" characters you've mentioned is that now they're actually DOING something with them.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
          That's honestly my biggest, biggest complaint, and not so much that they're behaving differently as that they're acting--in my belief and considered opinion--like jerks or in some cases far, far worse. But I am sure that this will pass in time and the next reboot, after a much-needed DC regime change, will make things better. (And, please, more accessible to a wider age range.)
          I really saw it with the early Justice League issues. Green Lantern seemed like a complete jackass and Wonder Woman being dazzled by the concept of ice cream didn't do much for the warrior princess image. Aquaman seemed off, too, coming in with a lot of attitude that he didn't display in his own book.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by LetsRollKato View Post
            If you ask me, Batman's still Batman, Superman's still Superman and the only difference with the "mystical" characters you've mentioned is that now they're actually DOING something with them.
            They completely changed the origins of The Question, Phantom Stranger and Madame Xanadu. Making them different characters with the same name. Captain Marvel's personality is almost a complete 180 from what it was. Superman and Lois are just friends. So yes I guess nothing has changed.

            While some things make sense, Apocolypse and New Genisis being in a pocket dimension between all the different worlds etc., it just seems like a lot of the changes were done just to make changes.
            Last edited by Ghornet2; 04-10-2014, 11:35 PM.
            Always remember, Murphy was an optimist
            Munchkin 1, 2, 4, 7 Super Munchkin 1&2, Munchkin Bites 1&2, Munchkin Fu, Star Munchkin Deluxe and Star 2
            http://ghornet.deviantart.com/

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ghornet2 View Post
              I understand the need to do a reboot/restart but it I think DC went a little to far. The wiped out 80 years of history.
              No, at most, they wiped out 30 years of continuity. It just stung more than the post-Crisis reboots, because every single series got reset to #1.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
                What they did is give themselves the opportunity to clear out the crap. Power Girl was from Atlantis for a while there? Yeah...let's dump that...
                Geoff Johns dumped the Arion/Atlantean origin (or it may have happened even earlier, when I wasn't paying attention) when he brought Power Girl into JSA/Justice Society, years before the New 52. It's a particularly bad example anyway, since the Arion/Atlantean origin was itself a reboot. Since Infinite Crisis brought back 52 universes in the DC multiverse, she was from a universe similar to, but not precisely the same as the old pre-COIE Earth-2. Virtually no one really liked the Arion connection anyway. It's not too dissimilar to what Johns did with Hawkman, another character with a severely messed-up backstory. He was just smoothing out the patchwork job done by earlier writers on the character.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ghornet2 View Post
                  My favorite characters Zatanna, Phantom Stranger, Madam Xanadu and the JSA are not the same characters.
                  Totally agree as far as Earth-2, but it's funny you singled out those other characters, since I feel like they, along with the rest of the supernatural/Justice League Dark (still hate that name) characters are the only ones that really benefited from the reboot. Again, law of inverse proportions, I guess. I always felt that (even though I liked them) those characters were particularly ill-defined (we knew virtually nothing, aside from a multiple-choice selection of 'possible' origins, about the Phantom Stranger). Then again, in the case of the supernatural characters, they're fusing elements from the former Vertigo line with the former DCU versions of those characters. They're all characters that have had a spotty history of publication (most never even had their own series in the DCU, at least not ongoing series), so their continuity and backstory was more fragmentary than the big iconic superheroes. I actually think Dan Didio (regardless of my general hatred of the man) came up with a brilliant tweak for the Phantom Stranger, somewhat evocative of a couple of the Alan Moore 'possible' origins for the character, but one that actually makes sense, and they seem to have completely rethought the entire framework of how the supernatural works in the New 52. But then again, since we never had an established origin for PS in the DCU, it's not actually violating anything from the older stories. It seems like most of the old DCU appearances treated him as an enigma, and we never really got inside his head. I love the idea of the Trinity of Sin. Granted that The Question is nothing like the original Ditko or O'Neil versions of the character, but that character never worked for me in the DCU anyway (except the animated version). The Zatanna/Constantine relationship was actually introduced back in a Vertigo one-shot Zatanna story from 2003 written by Paul Dini. I admit to not having read a huge chunk of the Vertigo Hellblazer series, but I can't see that they've really changed Constantine's basic character or history (true, they added Nick Necro to his backstory, but does that really contradict anything established earlier?); ditto for Deadman (athough they introduced an interesting continuity implant). Swamp Thing is not exactly the same Swamp Thing, but they've acknowledged that the pre-New 52 version existed and is part of the character's history. Haven't got around to reading Matt Wagner's Vertigo Madame Xanadu series yet (I went out and bought the trades recently), so I'm not sure (again, I never really had a handle on what her deal was, pre-New 52) how or even if she's really changed that much.

                  Zatanna seems like the one who got the biggest chunk of her past history wiped out, but that has more to do with the reboot of Justice League than it does with anything from the Justice League Dark series. Frankly I think I prefer her as not part of the regular Justice League since I don't care for the rebooted version.
                  Last edited by pulphero; 04-11-2014, 12:48 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
                    Well, I get it from the point of view of someone thinking it's a good time to try something new (to them). I don't get it from a long-time reader who suddenly can't stand a character he or she loved because of some change in the background or because which parts of past continuity are still applicable isn't fully defined yet. I don't see how that's different than when they rebooted several characters following major events (Crisis, Zero Hour, whatever).
                    It's too much at once. Characters have always been cancelled, lain fallow for a while, and then had their continuities tweaked, or (in the case of long-running ongoing characters) used an event miniseries as an excuse to make course corrections. I think the 'wholesale' nature of the thing (not one minor adjustment, but everything at once, regardless of whether it's throwing out the baby with the bathwater) is what's most irksome. When you're a longtime reader, you've spent years committing various details of these characters' history to memory, and it's very disorienting to suddenly have to sort through those memories and try to understand what applies and what no longer applies. That feeling of being "in the know" was a lot of the driving motivation for continuing to buy these comics. If you're a new reader or have been away for a while, it's not a problem for you.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by LetsRollKato View Post
                      They "wiped out" about six years worth of history, if that. (INFINITE CRISIS "rebooted" the Multiverse in '05/'06).

                      And, really, you still HAVE all of those comics from the past. They STILL EXIST. You can read them any time you want to to your heart's content. So. really, the "history" hasn't gone anywhere. That's the problem with comic fans...they love in their own little safety boxes and change freaks them out. If you ask me, Batman's still Batman, Superman's still Superman and the only difference with the "mystical" characters you've mentioned is that now they're actually DOING something with them.
                      Agree with that last part, but sometimes you look at a thing and say "Yes, I can still reread the old ones, and I think that's what I'll stick with". DC drew a line in the sand, they can't expect everyone to cross it as if nothing had changed. What does THIS Superman have to do with the previous Superman? Nothing, really. To you they're still the same, to someone else they're completely different. You can look at it and point out the similarities, while someone else can point out the differences.

                      Comment


                      • i just miss the JSA. Earth 2 has been a fun book for the most part...but JSA is what made me big DC fan.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                          Geoff Johns dumped the Arion/Atlantean origin (or it may have happened even earlier, when I wasn't paying attention) when he brought Power Girl into JSA/Justice Society, years before the New 52. It's a particularly bad example anyway, since the Arion/Atlantean origin was itself a reboot.
                          That's not what I mean.

                          Say you're a Power Girl fan from day one. You just love everything about her. One day, you read a story in which you're told that everything you knew is wrong, she's actually from Atlantis.

                          You bear through and accept it. Then a while later, they say forget about all that, she isn't from Atlantis.

                          These characters were being rebooted frequently to try to make them more popular, or relevant, whatever. It isn't new to the New 52. The old DC would go through something like this all the time too yet people miss it. How muddled was Hawkman's background? The Legion's?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                            It's too much at once. Characters have always been cancelled, lain fallow for a while, and then had their continuities tweaked, or (in the case of long-running ongoing characters) used an event miniseries as an excuse to make course corrections. I think the 'wholesale' nature of the thing (not one minor adjustment, but everything at once, regardless of whether it's throwing out the baby with the bathwater) is what's most irksome. When you're a longtime reader, you've spent years committing various details of these characters' history to memory, and it's very disorienting to suddenly have to sort through those memories and try to understand what applies and what no longer applies. That feeling of being "in the know" was a lot of the driving motivation for continuing to buy these comics. If you're a new reader or have been away for a while, it's not a problem for you.
                            I wonder then if after Crisis, long-time readers just disconnected as well and because it was pre-internet, we didn't really hear about it? Because while DC didn't start their books from #1 all over again, several characters changed dramatically.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
                              I wonder then if after Crisis, long-time readers just disconnected as well and because it was pre-internet, we didn't really hear about it? Because while DC didn't start their books from #1 all over again, several characters changed dramatically.
                              I heard about it. Some long-time DC readers did choose that as jumping-off point for DC Comics. But it still wasn't as drastic as the New 52. Superman and Wonder Woman got the only 'hard reboots', although certainly Legion of Super-Heroes was greatly affected by the Superman reboot, and Wonder Girl by the Wonder Woman reboot. Batman got a 'soft reboot' (more of a 'continuity implant') in the form of Batman: Year One. The other main issues had to do with melding the JSA's Earth-2 universe into the Earth-1 universe, so JSA and Infinity Inc. characters endured quite a bit of tweaking, with some Golden Age heroes having to disappear altogether in the new merged universe. But 95% of the former Earth-1 characters continued with their histories unchanged. Other reboots (like Hawkman) came only later down the road, months or years after Crisis itself ended.

                              It was certainly possible to quit reading the Superman titles, Wonder Woman, Legion of Super-Heroes, and Infinity Inc. (the JSA being shuffled off to another dimension), and pretend the Crisis had never happened, if you so chose (note that Superman was not a Justice League member at this point in time). The most likely people to just walk away were die-hard Superman, LSH and JSA fans, who couldn't accept the changes. Possibly a small faction of Wonder Woman fans, but she's a character whose pre-Crisis incarnation never really inspired legions of devotees.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
                                That's not what I mean. Say you're a Power Girl fan from day one. You just love everything about her.
                                I don't have to hypothesize about this one. I was that guy.

                                Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
                                One day, you read a story in which you're told that everything you knew is wrong, she's actually from Atlantis. You bear through and accept it. Then a while later, they say forget about all that, she isn't from Atlantis.
                                Or maybe you never really accepted it, it just grated on you. And so you breath a sigh of relief and say, "Thank god they finally got rid of that stupid rebooted origin and replaced it with something much closer to her original origin". Because you hated the Atlantean thing from the beginning. It made no sense, and no one else you talked to liked the idea either. And who the hell is Arion? A nothing character in the grand scheme of DC's history. Yup, believe it or not, if enough people actually dislike some particular story, it will usually (a) be ignored and never referred to (I think that had already happened) and (b) some like-minded comics writer like Geoff Johns, who, once upon a time, was considered by many to be the best friend of old-school DC fans, a kind of "Mr. Fix-it" of the DCU, will come along and explain it away.

                                Long story short: I had stopped caring about Power Girl as a character after that Atlantean origin reboot. I no longer made it a point to seek out her appearances in various DC comics, and since for the longest time there was no JSA book, it didn't really matter. Then Geoff Johns brought her back into the JSA, restored her origin to that of the cousin of a Superman from a parallel universe, and all of a sudden she became one of my favorite characters again. But then the New 52 happened, and after reading a few issues of Earth 2 and Worlds Finest, I ceased caring again.

                                It's the same with Superman, Batman, or any character, really. There are certain iterations of the character that I love, and others that I couldn't care less about. I'm sure there are people who consider themselves die-hard Batman fans that will buy every New 52 Batman-related title, but wouldn't touch Batman '66 with a ten-foot pole, because to them, "it's not the real Batman". The opposite also applies. What's "real" is what's real to you, personally, as a reader. I may love the Stan Lee/Steve Ditko/John Romita Spider-Man, and barely care about any other version that's been done since.

                                I did continue to read certain DC New 52 titles in cases where the writers carried over from the pre-New 52 versions: the Green Lantern titles, Legion of Super-Heroes (both of which were easy to ignore the various rebooted aspects of the DCU because they took place in outer space, and in the future, respectively), Batman Incorporated (the two volumes comprise one long ongoing story arc), and Jonah Hex/All Star Western. Of those, Batman Incorporated and Legion of Super-Heroes ended, and I quit reading all the Green Lantern titles when Geoff Johns and Peter Tomasi concluded their runs on the books at issue #20. That leaves me with All Star Western, and the 5 supernatural titles: Justice League Dark, Constantine, Pandora, Phantom Stranger, and Swamp Thing (which I've only been following since Charles Soule took over writing the book with issue #19). I did read some of the John Layman/Jason Fabok run on Detective Comics, and they weren't bad, but since they're off the book, I quit again.
                                Last edited by pulphero; 04-12-2014, 06:43 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X