Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Tarantino, Hudlin & Wagner Team for "Django/Zorro" Crossover

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    just finished rereading "The Curse of Capistrano" and was again marveling at how much we know about Zorro isn't in the novel. So much of it is from The Tyrone Power or Guy Williams versions.

    I think he only made the mark of the Z once, right before he killed the man.

    Bernardo was there and deaf & dumb, but he was also an idiot and a minor character.

    His father was never the 'alcalde' a term that was never mentioned.

    Lolita was another callbaero's daughter.

    No mention of Spain. He grew up seeing the abuse and decided early on to do something about it.

    Gonzalez was a big man and a boaster, not the fool we are use to.
    Always remember, Murphy was an optimist
    Munchkin 1, 2, 4, 7 Super Munchkin 1&2, Munchkin Bites 1&2, Munchkin Fu, Star Munchkin Deluxe and Star 2
    http://ghornet.deviantart.com/

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Ghornet2 View Post
      just finished rereading "The Curse of Capistrano" and was again marveling at how much we know about Zorro isn't in the novel. So much of it is from The Tyrone Power or Guy Williams versions.

      I think he only made the mark of the Z once, right before he killed the man.
      Sort of, the serials (collected as the first novel) pretty much opens with descriptions of the mysterious/elusive Zorro and the fact that he uses his blade to mark a Z on his foes.
      It focuses on his main foe/rival Captain ramon, and builds up to him climactically getting marked too.
      It's pretty essential to the story and main villain.

      Like the tongue of a serpent, Senor Zorro's blade shot in, Thrice it darted forward, and upon the fair brow of Ramon, just between the eyes, there flamed suddenly a red, bloody letter Z.
      "The mark of Zorro!" the highwayman cried,. "You wear it forever now, comandante!"
      This was definitely not something introduced or first emphasised in the Tyrone Power or Guy Williams version.
      It was there from the start and emphasised from the start.

      If anything it's Fairbanks, who recognized it as so central to the theme of the story and character, that he took the exact line from McCulley and made it the name of the first movie 1920s - "The mark of Zorro!" (which then became the title of the Novelization)
      Didn't come from Powers or Guy Williams version.


      Bernardo was there and deaf & dumb, ......and a minor character.
      Yeah he is pretty minor in the first McCulley story, although he is one of the few recurring character throughout later stories. And he is in the Fairbanks version.
      It is Disney who reinvents the character and makes him more a central focus, to better give (Guy Williams) a sounding board.

      No mention of Spain. He grew up seeing the abuse and decided early on to do something about it.
      Not in the first story, he is definitely introduced fully formed, already existing as Zorro when it opens. Although there is plenty of mention of Spain, Spanish "blood" nobility, legay as what drives him/them, etc. We get no actual full back story / origin.
      I haven't read all the McCulley stories before 1940 Tyrone Powers version, so there may be some mention of him having studied in Spain.
      But yeah the Tyrone Powers (and then Disney) version both began with him being called home from Spain.
      And then quickly developing both new identities, the (fake) Diego persona, and the Fox (his true self) almost immediately.
      It isn't until the Allende Novel commissioned by Zorro Inc. that we get a full origin, and the full details of his time "studies" in Spain, and abroad.

      Gonzalez was a big man and a boaster, not the fool we are use to.
      Two somewhat separate characters, Pedro Gonzalez is the McCulley version, Demetrio Lopez Garcia is the more foolish reinvention for the Disney TV show.
      But the essence of the corpulent, proud, and comedic character who is "friends" with Diego, and in pursuit of Zorro is there from the start, and the followup pulp stories where he reappears, before Tyrone Powers & Disney.

      His father was never the 'alcalde' a term that was never mentioned.
      Lolita was another callbaero's daughter.
      Don't know if those really ever became the most relevant or "known" interpretations, Lolita in other incarnations was pretty much swapped with other characters, as was her connection to alcalde or not.
      As far as Alejandro actually being Alcalde, that was also not necessarily the most "known" interpretation. The Tyrone Powers version might be the anomaly there.

      But yeah, Zorro had many contributors; Most of the essence of the character came from McCulley, his other "dad" Fairbanks, gave him his most iconic look, mask, bolero style hat, the secret lair entrance, the over the top swashbuckling, real fun devil may care approach to the character.
      The Republic serials, a bit grittier, with cliffhangers, the whip work and the huge influence on Lucas and Spielberg action heroes.
      Tyrone powers started him in Spain and gave us his first "origin" of sorts, as we see him actually become Zorro.
      And Disney cemented it all in a great new repackage (Guy Williams) probably still the most iconic.
      Last edited by Guicho; 05-28-2015, 09:12 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
        Maybe they're not fine for everyone else reading this thread; perhaps they would be best shared via PM rather than posted here, unless more time goes by.
        Trying to encourage anyone to at least comment on and review it, thread was dead, book's end came out a week ago, nobody is talking about it. Spoilers can as usual be be put in tags with warnings. I 'm just trying to encourage at least some discussion about the general story and the grand finale! At this point I'll take anything.

        Somebody at least talk about it! (I mean other than to say don't talk about it)LOL!
        Last edited by Guicho; 05-27-2015, 06:46 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Ghornet2 View Post
          just finished rereading "The Curse of Capistrano" and was again marveling at how much we know about Zorro isn't in the novel. So much of it is from The Tyrone Power or Guy Williams versions.

          I think he only made the mark of the Z once, right before he killed the man.

          Bernardo was there and deaf & dumb, but he was also an idiot and a minor character.

          His father was never the 'alcalde' a term that was never mentioned.

          Lolita was another callbaero's daughter.

          No mention of Spain. He grew up seeing the abuse and decided early on to do something about it.

          Gonzalez was a big man and a boaster, not the fool we are use to.
          You forgot probably the biggest change... at the end of the novel, Zorro reveals his identity! This was simply ignored by Johnston McCulley in his many sequels. There may never even have been any sequels written by McCulley, if it were not for the fact that Douglas Fairbanks read "The Curse of Capistrano" in All-Story Weekly while on his honeymoon with actress Mary Pickford. By this time, both were very big stars, and used their accumulated earnings to start their own studio, United Artists, which they founded in 1919 together with director D.W. Griffith and Charlie Chaplin, with the intention of controlling their own pictures. Fairbanks chose "The Curse of Capistrano" to become the first picture released by United Artists, with himself in the starring role, and retitled the story The Mark of Zorro. Subsequent to the release of the film, which was a smash hit with the public, the serialized story from All-Story Weekly appeared in book form under the same title, The Mark of Zorro. There are enough similarities between the original Zorro story and The Scarlet Pimpernel (novel 1905, based on her play) by Baroness Emma Orczy. The play first appeared in 1903, produced and adapted by Julia Nelson and Paul Terry, but was not a success. With a rewritten last act, it became a big hit when it later ran in London's West End New Theater beginning in 1905. That success led to Orczy's novelized version which was also a big success, and the similarities between "The Curse of Capistrano" and The Scarlet Pimpernel are such that we can probably conclude that McCulley had read Orczy's novel.

          The success of the book version of The Mark of Zorro prompted McCulley to write a sequel, The Further Adventures of Zorro, which was serialized in Argosy in May and June 1922. The next Zorro novel didn't appear for another nine years; Zorro Rides Again was also serialized in Argosy, in October of 1931. Three shorter Zorro stories followed, one each in the years 1932, 1933, and 1934, all appearing again in Argosy. The next Zorro story, "Zorro Hunts by Night", didn't appear until September 1940 in Cavalier Classics. One further Zorro novel (The Sign of Zorro) appeared, serialized in Argosy in January and February 1941. In July 1944, McCulley's Zorro stories gained a new permanent home, appearing on a semi-regular basis in WEST Magazine until July 1951. One last McCulley Zorro story, "The Mask of Zorro" (no relation to the later film), was published posthumously in 1959.

          I think that makes only four novel-length Zorro adventures (in order of appearance: The Curse of Capistrano/aka The Mark of Zorro, The Further Adventures of Zorro, Zorro Rides Again, and The Sign of Zorro). The remaining Zorro stories (over 50 of them) are all of shorter length. But unquestionably, after the first novel, McCulley was influenced by the film adaptation of Douglas Fairbanks. Fairbanks' screen persona may well have been influenced by an earlier film serial, The Masked Rider (1919), which featured a Mexican hero clad in black, on a black horse. Furthermore, McCulley wasn't always consistent with his earlier Zorro stories, even after The Curse of Capistrano, and had a tendency to change things he'd already established or simply ignore them.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by pulphero View Post
            You forgot probably the biggest change... at the end of the novel, Zorro reveals his identity!
            Well both Fairbanks and Tyrone powers stayed true to that. So no, that wasn't a departure or "change" that Tyrone powers version brought.
            Disney on the other hand of course assumed the ongoing identity for the series, as per the subsequent McCulley stories. Also McCulley I believe was writer/consultant on developing the Disney series.

            Zorro reveals his identity! This was simply ignored by Johnston McCulley in his many sequels.
            Also not true. Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia. McCulley in the sequels absolutely acknowledges his identity reveal, and actually made great use of the fact, exploring the nature of a dual identity and how he (by necessity) must adopt it again, first in spirit, then physically.

            In the next story - The Further Adventures of Zorro - With the villain defeated and his identity outed, Zorro (his true self) and sword are retired. He and the Dons who know his secret life, fear that without the identity, adventure, and a cause to spur him on, he'll become the languid, lazy persona he once invented to throw off the enemy.

            When the city is attacked by pirates, and his now fiance (Lolita) is kidnaped, it calls him to action once again, and not as a disguise this time, but as a way to channel his inner strength, he retakes the fox "identity" and sword once again.
            He pursues the pirates to a seaside cliff, where he can only watch helplessly as they escape by ship.
            And in an epic scene of cinematic proportions, that would make even Frank Miller's Dark Knight weep with joy.
            He reals back, checks his sword, and takes a running leap off the moon lit cliff, into the ocean bellow, in that instant the author let's us know - Diego is dead, and his real self; Zorro is born again.

            -

            In the next story - Zorro Rides Again - the identity reveal, is again acknowledged by McCulley and exploited in story. Hoping to ruin Diego Vega, who they know was Zorro, someone disguises himself as Zorro, and begins a campaign of terror and murder against the people and through the land he once protected.
            Vega is of course blamed.
            To clear his name he must become an outlaw, again dons the mask, sword and identity, and fights his way to clearing his name and exposing the fake Zorro.
            This of course sets up, for all the ongoing stories, that anyone can still be the Zorro, which is the true one becomes a mystery again? And again people except those closest to him, are never again sure if it's the retired Vega, or not.
            As new comandantes/captains arrive, enemies are vanquished, people who knew him come and go, only rumors remain, the truth becomes "blurred", and the mystery and legend persists.
            Last edited by Guicho; 05-28-2015, 05:58 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              I'm not sure that sounds very convincing or believable (not that I doubt your word that that's the way McCulley handled it)... it sounds like that sort of bad way that people refer to something as "comic-booky"... and does bring to mind the sort of dorky Mort Weisinger-era Superman plot gimmicks...

              Don Diego no longer even a suspect? I have to admit I was never really comfortable with The Spider's way of handling it either... sort of the "Yeah, YOU know who I am, and I know YOU know ... but I'm not gonna admit it, and you can't prove it, so let's both just go on pretending."
              Last edited by pulphero; 05-28-2015, 07:02 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                Don Diego no longer even a suspect?
                That, is just more invention by you.
                He is in fact suspect, that forms part of the next stories.

                You said-
                Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                Zorro reveals his identity! This was simply ignored by Johnston McCulley in his many sequels.
                That is not true.
                McCulley did not "ignore" what he wrote, as I described he in fact references it in the next stories, and makes plot elements out of the fact that his identity was revealed.
                Who knows it, is the setup of the plot of the next couple of stories.

                Believe what you want, if you haven't read them, you don't know.

                By the fourth story the now new Capitán is also understandably not only suspicious but "certain" Diego is Zorro, Diego cunningly deceives him into believing it's not him.
                That's how the character operates. Deception is his weapon.

                Read the stories. who exactly "knew" first hand Zorro was Diego and what they are able to do with that information, is more nuanced than you imply, people, soldiers, commanders, come and go, some use it to strike back at him, others move on, many are his allies, accusing someone with out proof can also be a liability, the world he inhabits is full of thugs, soldiers, pirates etc, who are ruled by superstition, fear, and mystery, all which (McCulley and) Diego takes advantage of to build his legend.

                Anyway, you are obviously a pulp fan, you seem to be interested in Zorro, I'm also just a fan and just sharing what I read.
                Last edited by Guicho; 05-29-2015, 12:52 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Guicho View Post
                  That, is just more invention by you.
                  No, that is me asking a question. That's why there was a question mark at the end of it. Chill out, man.

                  I made the comparison to The Spider, where Commissioner Kirkpatrick seems to know, and Richard Wentworth knows that he knows, but he has no absolute proof. Nothing he can do anything about, anyway. (I'm speaking of the pulp novels here, not the comics.) Never really cared for the way that situation was set up, to be honest. Sure, anyone can put on a disguise, but just because more than one person did it, doesn't make the person who was revealed as being in disguise seem any more innocent. For all anyone knows, he may be part of a conspiracy. If everyone starts shouting "I am Spartacus!", the most foolproof solution is to crucify them all. Maybe it seems plausible to you. We are all entitled to our opinions. Don't mistake that for doubting what you're saying.

                  You know what would help? If Zorro Inc. did something about making those McCulley stories more available to the average person to READ. Does ERB Inc. try to keep the original Tarzan stories out of the public eye in favor of new works based on the character? I don't think so. Oddly enough, for some decades many of the books were out of print, until some fell into public domain and now they're being reprinted left and right it seems, now that it's free. But how such a famous character as Zorro's original stories can be so obscure (apart probably from the first novel) is a mystery to me. It almost seems as if Zorro Inc. doesn't WANT people to read them. Is NO publisher interested in reprinting these stories? Altus Press has reprinted far more obscure work by McCulley, why not Zorro? It borders almost on the bizarre. Yet look at the big hoopla they made over Isabel Allende's Zorro novel. I cannot even remember, in my lifetime, any mainstream publisher having reprinted the original McCulley Zorro stories in a series of paperbacks or hardcovers... and I've seen several go-rounds of Burroughs, R.E. Howard, Lovecraft (here to stay, it seems now, though it wasn't always so). Yeah, I'm aware there was a fan-based operation about a decade ago that collected a bunch of the 30s&40s short stories in a few trade paperbacks, which quickly went out of print and became collectibles. "Read the stories", he says... I can't even FIND the stories.
                  Last edited by pulphero; 05-29-2015, 01:19 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    They have them available in a few formats, including a 99 cent Kindle version of some, though I'm not into the whole e-reader thing much yet.

                    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...zorro+mcculley

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                      They have them available in a few formats, including a 99 cent Kindle version of some, though I'm not into the whole e-reader thing much yet.

                      http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...zorro+mcculley
                      It seems not much has changed since I last looked on Amazon. I see The Curse of Capistrano and The Mark of Zorro (both of which are the original Zorro novel, under its original magazine title, and the book title), and the second novel, The Further Adventures of Zorro. So I guess it's fair to say that the first 2 Zorro stories are fairly easily available (but the second one only in a digital version). That's pretty much it. Those Zorro: The Masters Edition trade paperbacks are that fan-based project I mentioned from ten years ago (closer to 15, by the looks of it, now). Just check the collectors' prices on those, and they're not available in a cheap digital version. The rest of the titles listed on that page are comic books or radio dramas, or are McCulley's works not from the Zorro series.

                      Someone posted a complete list of all of McCulley's original Zorro stories here:

                      http://www.zorrolegend.com/origin/mcculleystories.html
                      Last edited by pulphero; 05-30-2015, 01:42 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Ah. Sorry.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Anyway the real crime hear is nobody is discussing the actual book, with such promminant creators involved thought it would get more buzz.
                          Looks like it's going to be me.
                          I was trade waiting, but got #1 is free on-line, and #2 cheap.
                          #2 is mostly set up, and back story of the main antagonist/villain. Actually a pretty interesting character and story bassed loosely on real life "Baron of Arizona", immortalized by Vincent Price in the 1950s film- http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baron_of_Arizona

                          It's a pretty clever setup and works really well for the meeting point in time, place, and purpose, establishing a believable intertwining path for the two title characters.

                          Similar to how the Banderas, Hopkins film used real life events and personas Harry Love, and Joaquin Murrieta to ground their story. Especially with Murieta apperantlly having been a real life inspiration for Zorro. The historic events here similarly work really well.

                          That said, besides all the set up establishing the main villain, book #2 has just one other scene.
                          And of course it's the worst, out of character forced moment, where to show up Django, they completely betray the characters and have Zorro pretty much claiming he won't use a gun. (this was similarly done in Lone Ranger meets Zorro)
                          WTF? Where did they get this?

                          The buzz they put out was that Tarantino and Wagner spent an eavning watching films? Besides Baron of Arizona I have to wonder what they watched? Or read? But it wasn't much Zorro. Not McCulley, not Fairbanks, not Powers, not the awesome Republic serials which inspired Lucas and Speilberg, not the Disney series or Toth comics, all of which had him use a gun.
                          IF not those what do they model their Zorro on? What is it? Out of ignorance of the character source? Or do they just ridiculously want to retrofit Batman onto the more pulp Zorro?

                          Again, seems like a backwards way for Dynamite, Tarantino and Wagner to want to homage Zorro, the pulp fiction badass character which informed their creations.

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Zorro pistol  McCulley Argosy Pulps.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	51.2 KB
ID:	48958
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by Guicho; 11-17-2015, 09:47 AM.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X