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WARLORD OF MARS RETURNING IN NOVEMBER!!

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  • #46
    G'day,

    I understand the artist is from India. There seems to be a bit of Bollywood in the art which is fine by me as some of those actresses are just gorgeous.
    I think I'm going to enjoy the new series Hope Mr Malsuni gets a chance to paint a few covers.

    ta

    Ralph



    Originally posted by pulphero View Post
    I think the word you're looking for here is (Burroughs' description) "incomparable". She does indeed look more beautiful than I've ever seen her looking before (at least interior art-wise) in a DE comic.
    These are some of the same pages I'd seen (at smaller size) in last month's Diamond PREVIEWS catalog... Abhishek Malsuni, whose work I'd never seen before, is impressing me already.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by ralphuniverse View Post
      There seems to be a bit of Bollywood in the art
      I'm afraid you lost me there, Ralph. I understand insofar as "Bollywood" refers to the film industry of India, but I've seen next to nothing of these films apart from an occasional clip here and there. So I don't understand how a comic can be "Bollywood". It may make complete sense to someone who has a good grasp of what makes their film product unique compared to other countries, I suppose. The only thing I really know about it is it seems to be influenced a lot by both Hong Kong action films, and musicals, music videos especially. With of course, its own homegrown spin on the material. I've never actually watched a complete Indian film.

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      • #48
        G'day,

        In the part of Sydney were I live we have a large immigrant Indian community so I have some familiarity with Indian culture. But Dejah looks Indian to me and the palace in the background looks like the Taj Mahal. The long haired John Carter looks like a hero from a Bollywood historical movie. Here's a picture of Indian actress Rythamika.








        Originally posted by pulphero View Post
        I'm afraid you lost me there, Ralph. I understand insofar as "Bollywood" refers to the film industry of India, but I've seen next to nothing of these films apart from an occasional clip here and there. So I don't understand how a comic can be "Bollywood". It may make complete sense to someone who has a good grasp of what makes their film product unique compared to other countries, I suppose. The only thing I really know about it is it seems to be influenced a lot by both Hong Kong action films, and musicals, music videos especially. With of course, its own homegrown spin on the material. I've never actually watched a complete Indian film.
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        Last edited by ralphuniverse; 09-26-2014, 09:30 AM.

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        • #49
          OK, the artist's nationality wasn't obvious to me from the name alone, so I take your word for it. As far as whether the art looks "Indian" to me in any way (even armed now with this new information about the artist's nationality) I would have to say... a resounding NO. If you hadn't told me his nationality, I'd never have guessed based on looking at the artwork.

          Dejah to me looks in the art as she SHOULD look, beautiful, sexy, and exotic... well, yes, she is kind of a "foreigner"... from Mars. I see nothing Indian there in her facial features, and she's ALWAYS had raven hair and coppery-red skin tone (varying by the colorists' whims, but I prefer her leaning towards a much redder red than any race seen on Earth and than we see her here in this art). I kind of like what he's done with her hair, giving it some volume and showing individual strands and curls, rather than some undifferentiated solid black silhouette as it's sometimes depicted. It's obvious he's a bit more practiced at drawing a voluptuous (yet simultaneously regal in body language) woman, and he has a better understanding of real anatomy, and therefore how best to exaggerate without going too far overboard. John Carter doesn't look Indian to me either... although who REALLY knows what his *original* nationality is... a "gentleman of Virginia" is only the most RECENT of his identities before becoming the Warlord of Mars.

          It's interesting that Burroughs never really described Dejah in too-precise detail, other than her exceptional beauty and state of undress. Her eyes, nose, lips, the shape of her face, things like that. He left it up to the reader to fill in the details of the perfect exotic Martian Princess according to his own ideal image, and various artists have helped us along that pathway to collectively define her for over a hundred years.

          Interesting that you see "Taj Mahal" in that Barsoomian architecture. I would have said middle-eastern or Russian, mosques or minarettes, but these influences have been assimilated into fantasy art since forever ago. I can find images of Krypton drawn by Wayne Boring from the 1950s that have a very similar look, if not as detailed. Oddly enough for such a ornate exterior, the interior decor resembles early Dark Ages dungeon. Well, yes, I guess it IS a dungeon, but somehow looking at the exterior of the building you just don't expect walls made of ordinary gray stone blocks.

          "Eye of the Beholder", I guess.

          I just Googled Abhishek Malsuni, and apparently Dynamite stole him from Zenescope. That would explain my never having seen his work anywhere before.
          Last edited by pulphero; 09-26-2014, 01:21 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by rasx View Post
            The villain looks definitely human.
            Well, there I assumed there was some sort of master plan at DE where the DEJAH OF MARS mini series was being set up to hint at the pre-origins of this "Invasion of Mars".
            Now that I see the actual character, besides my being underwhelmed by disappointment at "Carter's equal", I realize that the writer of Dejah of Mars had nothing connected to Ron Marz' ongoing at all, perhaps planting a seed for something of his own further down the road (or never to be seen at all). The "invasion" he hinted at is probably sheer coincidence, since the villain in Marz' series isn't a "thing" or "horrible". Definitely not someone summoned by ages-old beacons buried beneath Barsoom's surface. In fact, a little TOO ordinary.

            I probably should have realized that despite being nominally part of the same franchise, series by two different writers at DE have NEVER been that coordinated, editorially. The fact of the timing, and two unrelated invasions, made me think that DE had gone out of its way in this instance to have more continuity, like Marvel or DC.
            Last edited by pulphero; 09-26-2014, 01:12 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by pulphero View Post
              Well, there I assumed there was some sort of master plan at DE where the DEJAH OF MARS mini series was being set up to hint at the pre-origins of this "Invasion of Mars".
              Now that I see the actual character, besides my being underwhelmed by disappointment at "Carter's equal", I realize that the writer of Dejah of Mars had nothing connected to Ron Marz' ongoing at all, perhaps planting a seed for something of his own further down the road (or never to be seen at all). The "invasion" he hinted at is probably sheer coincidence, since the villain in Marz' series isn't a "thing" or "horrible". Definitely not someone summoned by ages-old beacons buried beneath Barsoom's surface. In fact, a little TOO ordinary.

              I probably should have realized that despite being nominally part of the same franchise, series by two different writers at DE have NEVER been that coordinated, editorially. The fact of the timing, and two unrelated invasions, made me think that DE had gone out of its way in this instance to have more continuity, like Marvel or DC.
              Maybe they're starting fresh and this and the new Tarzan series would be more connected.
              The only line that DE has right now that has Marvel/DC continuity is Chaos.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by rasx View Post
                Maybe they're starting fresh and this and the new Tarzan series would be more connected.
                Well, the OLD Lord of the Jungle series was already connected, via the Lords of Mars miniseries. I'd hate to think that DE was just throwing everything they did prior to reaching an agreement with ERB Inc. out the window, because that Lords of Mars miniseries really begs for a follow-up. I'm willing to throw the three Dejah Thoris limited series written by Mark Rahner out the window, I'd just like to keep both the regular Warlord of Mars and its spinoff Warlord of Mars Dejah Thoris ongoing series. I liked Fall of Barsoom and Warriors of Mars (although I wasn't crazy about the last issue), too. The only thing I didn't like about the previous DE Lord of the Jungle was the lack of using the Mangani language, and instead replacing Tarzan's own tribe's language with a series of guttural grunts and growls. Now that they're able to use all the material from the copyrighted novels, I'd still like to see the previous unauthorized stories treated as having happened. They don't need to refer back to specific things necessarily (with the exception that I'd still like to see a sequel to Lords of Mars... how did Tarzan return to Earth?), just so long as they don't outright contradict those stories. Maybe if they get eventually around to reprinting the Lord of the Jungle TPBs, they can use the official Tarzan logo and replace the "grunts and growls" in word balloons with ape language. KREEGAH!

                I'll be a little disappointed if they don't get back to doing adaptations of the novels at some point, though. The more I've read about the ongoing John Carter series, the more it seems they're planning to avoid that altogether in the regular series.

                There's definitely something in the wind for the near future involving a crossover of ERB characters, that much seems obvious. I think back to the Trendmasters Tarzan toy line of 1995-96, which was designed to cash in on the syndicated TV series Tarzan: The Epic Adventures. That toy line had a nice series of figures based on ERB's characters not only from the Tarzan novels, but the Barsoom and Pellucidar novels as well. A lot of them were released in 2-figure packs that featured a unique Tarzan figure along with some character or creature from Barsoom or Pellucidar. Some of them even came with 3.5" computer diskettes that gave you a little story background premise that would be used to stimulate kids' imagination to enhance the play value of those figures. The toy designers were obviously bringing a comic book universe sensibility to conceiving that line, and had it been more successful, maybe there might have been follow-up waves of figures with characters and creatures from the Venus, Moon, or Caspak novels. Their timing wasn't quite right, but I applaud their ambition, at least. I thought this toy line was very imaginative, but it had only the vaguest of connections to the live-action syndicated series, which couldn't have had much of a young demographic of viewers to begin with; had the line been based on an animated series with a comic book tie-in, it might have worked, or at least worked better than it did. (Anyone who's curious about this toy line and has never seen it can do so HERE.) The figures weren't overly slavish to ERB's stories, as they replaced Tarzan's animal companions Jad-bal-ja with "Numa" and N'kima with "Cheetah"; I think my favorite figure was "King Kerchak, Evil Cyber Ape".

                The only reason I bring the toy line up at all is that it presented more of the idea of an "ERB Universe" than we ever saw before that anywhere, either in the novels or the comics. Those toys predated even Dark Horse's crossovers of Tarzan with Predator (At the Earth's Core), John Carter, and Carson of Venus. Of course it all stems from ERB's Tarzan At the Earth's Core, but other than that one novel, everything else in the Burroughs stories tends to be a lot more "background". The Trendmasters toy line represents the first officially authorized and licensed by ERB, Inc. "crossover" of Tarzan with the Barsoom novels, even though the story is only loosely implied by the accompanying computer diskettes, and filled in by the "fan-fiction" of the toy owners' imaginations. I was thrilled to see these figures when they first appeared, as I never could have hoped to see characters from ERB's Barsoom and Pellucidar series represented as action figures. An animated series tied to the toy line would have made those "Epic Adventures" nothing short of... awesome!
                Last edited by pulphero; 09-29-2014, 02:47 AM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                  Well, the OLD Lord of the Jungle series was already connected, via the Lords of Mars miniseries. I'd hate to think that DE was just throwing everything they did prior to reaching an agreement with ERB Inc. out the window, because that Lords of Mars miniseries really begs for a follow-up. I'm willing to throw the three Dejah Thoris limited series written by Mark Rahner out the window, I'd just like to keep both the regular Warlord of Mars and its spinoff Warlord of Mars Dejah Thoris ongoing series. I liked Fall of Barsoom and Warriors of Mars (although I wasn't crazy about the last issue), too. The only thing I didn't like about the previous DE Lord of the Jungle was the lack of using the Mangani language, and instead replacing Tarzan's own tribe's language with a series of guttural grunts and growls. Now that they're able to use all the material from the copyrighted novels, I'd still like to see the previous unauthorized stories treated as having happened. They don't need to refer back to specific things necessarily (with the exception that I'd still like to see a sequel to Lords of Mars... how did Tarzan return to Earth?), just so long as they don't outright contradict those stories. Maybe if they get eventually around to reprinting the Lord of the Jungle TPBs, they can use the official Tarzan logo and replace the "grunts and growls" in word balloons with ape language. KREEGAH!

                  I'll be a little disappointed if they don't get back to doing adaptations of the novels at some point, though. The more I've read about the ongoing John Carter series, the more it seems they're planning to avoid that altogether in the regular series.

                  There's definitely something in the wind for the near future involving a crossover of ERB characters, that much seems obvious. I think back to the Trendmasters Tarzan toy line of 1995-96, which was designed to cash in on the syndicated TV series Tarzan: The Epic Adventures. That toy line had a nice series of figures based on ERB's characters not only from the Tarzan novels, but the Barsoom and Pellucidar novels as well. A lot of them were released in 2-figure packs that featured a unique Tarzan figure along with some character or creature from Barsoom or Pellucidar. Some of them even came with 3.5" computer diskettes that gave you a little story background premise that would be used to stimulate kids' imagination to enhance the play value of those figures. The toy designers were obviously bringing a comic book universe sensibility to conceiving that line, and had it been more successful, maybe there might have been follow-up waves of figures with characters and creatures from the Venus, Moon, or Caspak novels. Their timing wasn't quite right, but I applaud their ambition, at least. I thought this toy line was very imaginative, but it had only the vaguest of connections to the live-action syndicated series, which couldn't have had much of a young demographic of viewers to begin with; had the line been based on an animated series with a comic book tie-in, it might have worked, or at least worked better than it did. (Anyone who's curious about this toy line and has never seen it can do so HERE.) The figures weren't overly slavish to ERB's stories, as they replaced Tarzan's animal companions Jad-bal-ja with "Numa" and N'kima with "Cheetah"; I think my favorite figure was "King Kerchak, Evil Cyber Ape".

                  The only reason I bring the toy line up at all is that it presented more of the idea of an "ERB Universe" than we ever saw before that anywhere, either in the novels or the comics. Those toys predated even Dark Horse's crossovers of Tarzan with Predator (At the Earth's Core), John Carter, and Carson of Venus. Of course it all stems from ERB's Tarzan At the Earth's Core, but other than that one novel, everything else in the Burroughs stories tends to be a lot more "background". The Trendmasters toy line represents the first officially authorized and licensed by ERB, Inc. "crossover" of Tarzan with the Barsoom novels, even though the story is only loosely implied by the accompanying computer diskettes, and filled in by the "fan-fiction" of the toy owners' imaginations. I was thrilled to see these figures when they first appeared, as I never could have hoped to see characters from ERB's Barsoom and Pellucidar series represented as action figures. An animated series tied to the toy line would have made those "Epic Adventures" nothing short of... awesome!
                  Man those toys give me so much ideas, reminds me a little of He-man, a cartoon based on those toys would have been awesome. In both Epic Adventures and Disneys Tarzan had crossovers with Pellucidar, but none with Barsoom.
                  Idea: what if when Tarzan and Jane finally gets off Mars, they find themselves in the 21st century, because time passes differently on Mars, could be the basis for a Tarzan Now comic.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by rasx View Post
                    Idea: what if when Tarzan and Jane finally gets off Mars, they find themselves in the 21st century, because time passes differently on Mars, could be the basis for a Tarzan Now comic.
                    You know what occurred to me a long time ago, when you get to Mars by some kind of "astral projection" rather than by travelling through physical space, how do you know WHEN you are on Mars? How do you know you haven't projected yourself through time, as well as space? John Carter's Barsoom might exist millions of years in the past, relative to the present on Earth, or even millions of years in the future.

                    The other sticky question is, if we know that John Carter left his old physical body behind him on Earth, where it awaits in some sort of stasis in a mausoleum for his spirit to re-inhabit it, where did his body on Barsoom come from, and what happens to it when he leaves again to visit his nephew on Earth to relate his latest exploits on Barsoom? What would result if something were to HAPPEN to either one of his bodies while it was currently "unoccupied"?

                    Then when you think about it, how do we know John Carter has even been to Mars? We only have his word for it, and he has no proof. Come to think of it, there's no real proof that he's ageless either, is there? But let's assume that's true... how do we know that while his ageless body lies in some kind of suspended animation in a tomb somewhere (let's assume this agelessness requires some kind of stasis period to regenerate his body every so often, during which his mind is in sort of a coma... maybe he's just HALLUCINATING an entire other life on "Barsoom", where he's the world's hero, and wins the love of a beautiful princess... (it does sound like a fantasy trip, doesn't it?). Boy, that would spoil the stories, wouldn't it? Ah, but wait, you say... there's Ulysses Paxton; HE's been to Barsoom too, so that proves it, doesn't it? Well, we know that Paxton read Burroughs... but we really don't know anything much about HIM, either... could he ALSO be hallucinating? Or maybe John Carter just made Paxton up in his own mind. I don't recall offhand if Paxton ever really wound up meeting Carter in the books. But let's just assume it's ALL true... still, wouldn't it make for a story if the next time Carter returned to Earth to recount his adventures, some psychiatrists (having read Burroughs, and waited for just such an opportunity as this) show up with a bunch of burly bruisers in white coats, chloroform our hero, slap a straightjacket on Carter, and haul him off to the asylum "for observation", since he's "...Obviously, a VERY disturbed individual, suffering from an extreme case of psychotic fantasy delusions"...

                    These are the kinds of questions I'd love to see Ron Marz tackle in the new ongoing, along with looking into a way to determine just how old John Carter REALLY is, where he was originally born, and how he got to be ageless.
                    Last edited by pulphero; 09-29-2014, 05:00 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                      John Carter's Barsoom might exist millions of years in the past, relative to the present on Earth, or even millions of years in the future.
                      I've thought for a while now that this would neatly resolve pretty much all of the problems with Barsoom not fitting with the Mars we have in the real world: It's actually in the far, far distant future, long ages after human colonization and terraforming and the like, with some other alien races (or genetically engineered species) having come as the ancestors of Tars Tarkas and the like. That would explain how John Carter and Dejah Thoris are genetically compatible and so on.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                        I've thought for a while now that this would neatly resolve pretty much all of the problems with Barsoom not fitting with the Mars we have in the real world: It's actually in the far, far distant future, long ages after human colonization and terraforming and the like, with some other alien races (or genetically engineered species) having come as the ancestors of Tars Tarkas and the like. That would explain how John Carter and Dejah Thoris are genetically compatible and so on.
                        That's one possibility. It's the one used in the DC Universe to explain the preponderance of humanoid alien races in the Legion of Super-Heroes' 31st Century, and in the Marvel Universe's 31st Century to explain Charlie-27 and Martinex of the Guardians of the Galaxy (genetic modification of base Earth-human gene stock). Engineered, rather than random, mutations of basic Earth humans.

                        A second possibility is that it works the other way around, with Mars being the original place of humanoid origin, and Earth humans being a later development, adapted to our planet after the first Barsoom species ended.

                        A third possibility is that of "the unseen hand" of incredibly ancient and scientifically advanced aliens or cosmic beings who act as farmers or seeders of life throughout the universe -- used in the Star Trek universe, the ALIENS universe, and the Marvel Universe (the Celestials) to explain the commonality of humanoid-type races seen throughout those universes.

                        A fourth possibility is that for reasons not completely clear to us, the general humanoid bioform (upright posture, two arms, two legs, and a head with sensory organs and the brain contained within it) is just an evolutionarily advantageous adaptation for sentient intelligences, one that works so well in a variety of life-supporting planetary biospheres that it inevitably evolves with statistically-high frequency, and has a high survival factor probability. You do get a considerable amount of variation on that general plan, for example humanoid intelligences with four arms instead of two, and a fair variation of range in size and mass, influenced by the homeworld's gravity and so forth, as well as by random evolutionary factors. Another way of putting it is that given a planet within its sun's habitable zone (with abundant liquid water and other resources necessary for life to arise), although millions of different species can and will develop randomly through evolutionary mutation, the general morphology of the humanoid form is one that is particularly advantageous to the development of intelligence, and with the ability to make tools and build things, communicate and maintain a knowledge base, and just the right balance between cooperation and competition of individuals, all these factors taken together combine to create a high probability of survival as a species, of avoiding being eaten by other creatures, manipulating and altering the environment around them to build a civilization, and breeding in sufficient numbers to spread across the planet globally and become the dominant species, even eventually becoming a space-faring race. Once THAT has happened, and the species also has the capability of genetic engineering, it can then become even more influential on life beyond just the planetary scale, with the ability to spread across space and manipulate OTHER environments and lifeforms, as well as its own.
                        Last edited by pulphero; 10-02-2014, 02:56 AM.

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                        • #57
                          G'day,

                          When the movie was being talked about I though the producers might be using the time&space explanation to make the movie work. However most of these solutions break down when you remember they have to include the rest of the Solar System as john Carter visited Phobos and Jupiter.

                          To me there is no need to come up with complicated explanations. The existence of Barsoom is easily explained. It exists in a pre-Sputnik , pulp era universe. The universe created by ERB's brain. If people re willing to accept the far more ridiculous universe of Marvel or DC comics I fail to see and problem with Barsoom.

                          Ralph

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by ralphuniverse View Post
                            When the movie was being talked about I though the producers might be using the time&space explanation to make the movie work. However most of these solutions break down when you remember they have to include the rest of the Solar System as john Carter visited Phobos and Jupiter.
                            There's no "breakdown" of any solution, involved in John Carter visiting Phobos and Jupiter, Ralph. He did that by leaving Barsoom and travelling through space in the normal way, using spacecraft, not by "astral projection", which is the way he got from Earth to Barsoom. He visited the Phobos and Jupiter of the same time period that Barsoom existed in (whether that be the past, the present, or the future, relative to the post-Civil War time period on Earth when he left). Since no one really knows how astral projection works, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that Carter "projected" himself through time as well as space. Carter left his original body back on Earth, and it's only his consciousness that travelled to Barsoom. How he managed to find himself in a physical body when he got there, Burroughs never explained. But ERB did make it quite clear in the stories that Carter's original body is preserved in a sealed tomb or mausoleum on Earth-- he's very specific in detailing that the tomb is specially built so that it can only be opened from the inside, and that Carter specified this and arranged that his body NOT be embalmed upon his "death", in his Will -- and he can return to it when he chooses, to visit his nephew, and relate his adventures on Barsoom, which ERB claimed is how he knew of them, to write them down, so that WE know of them. When Carter travelled from Barsoom to Phobos and Jupiter, he did so using the physical body he had on Barsoom, within a spacecraft. Now, it's interesting to speculate on how Carter would know to leave these very specific directions in his will, if his astral trip to Mars was sort of unplanned to begin with... but we can assume that Carter made those arrangements based on what he DID know about himself, that he was apparently an ageless being, who couldn't remember ever having been any younger than he seemed to be right now. So he may have had some suspicions that any "death" he suffered might not be 100% permanent in nature, and was just being cautious.

                            But in fact, when you consider that when Carter left Earth, he was prospecting in the West and attacked by hostile Indians (this being shortly after Carter had left the Army of the Confederacy), yet ERB didn't begin writing the story until 1911 (when he was 35), and didn't publish the story of Carter's first adventure until the February 1912 issue of The All-Story Magazine -- something's already "gone a little funny" with time. Somehow, Carter was able to relate to his "nephew", a tale that for him, began on Earth shortly after the Civil War, and ERB wrote it down and published it shortly before the first World War. ERB would have been a mere infant (or not yet even born) when Carter had his encounter with unruly Native Americans. Granted, some little time had passed on Barsoom during Carter's earliest adventures there -- but 35 years? Even if we were to place Carter's hostile encounter as late as 1885, and assume ERB didn't write it down right away, that's still a gap of some 20-25 years.

                            There's a precedent for this "travel through space AND time" idea -- Michael Moorcock used it in his 3 Burroughs pastiche novels about Michael Kane (originally written in the 1960s under pseudonym Edward P. Bradbury), now collectively known as "Kane of Old Mars".
                            Last edited by pulphero; 10-02-2014, 11:39 AM.

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                            • #59
                              Oh, and of course the idea that the Barsoom he went to is an alternate universe's Mars is an option as well. Roy Thomas used that nicely in his retelling of when the JSA were sent through space and found every planet in the solar system inhabited.

                              Obviously, each version has its own advantages and disadvantages, especially with regard to whether or not there might be stories involving John Carter/Barsoom involved in any way with a present day like our own (in which we've been to Mars and so on, without discovering Barsoomians).

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                                Oh, and of course the idea that the Barsoom he went to is an alternate universe's Mars is an option as well. Roy Thomas used that nicely in his retelling of when the JSA were sent through space and found every planet in the solar system inhabited.

                                Obviously, each version has its own advantages and disadvantages, especially with regard to whether or not there might be stories involving John Carter/Barsoom involved in any way with a present day like our own (in which we've been to Mars and so on, without discovering Barsoomians).
                                And there's a precedent for that one as well -- A. Bertram Chandler used it in his novel THE ALTERNATE MARTIANS to explain how Burroughs' Martians and H.G. Wells' Martians could both be real, even though the Mariner IV Mars probe had shown otherwise. He dedicated the book to "The Mars that used to be, but never was."

                                Say WHAT now? We've been to Mars? When did THAT happen...? Oh, you mean remote vehicles, not people. Hey, you know, if the Martians sent a remote rover to Earth, and they picked a big flat open spot like the Sahara Desert to land in, they could drive it around for a few miles without seeing anyone, too.


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                                Last edited by pulphero; 10-04-2014, 12:21 AM.

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