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  • #61
    Originally posted by Magno View Post
    WHAT WAS THE REASON THE FIGHTING YANK DECIDED THAT COLLECTING THE GOLDEN AGE HEROES INTO A PANDORA'S BOX WOULD MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE.??? (I'm still stuck on that. I'll be back. Have to go donate some blood ...but will return.)

    [I think we all want the same thing here. Better comics to read. But let's be friends in trying to get there.]
    OK, let me get back to you on that one in just a little bit. Not at home to reference the collection right now, and... well, it WAS 2006, and my memory for plot details isn't quite as sharp as it was at one time (there's just been a lot of comics under the bridge), and I'm going to be completely candid here -- honest, that part (yes, I know it IS kind of important to the entire thing) just wasn't as memorable to me, as say, PLAYBOY's Sept. 1986 centerfold.

    And the other thing is I don't want to mangle it up and explain it badly, so for now, let me just say that there WAS a rationale given, and IIRC it wasn't necessarily a really strong one that you immediately said to yourself "Of course! That explains his motivation, it just fits right". No, I'll be honest and say that to my recollection it was more along the lines of, you sort of accept it as a gimme (or what I like to call the Clark Kent's Glasses plot device), because without it then there's no story -- you know, like without accepting that the US Government is going to place Norman Osborn, a guy with a documented medical history of psychological problems (yeah, you can HAVE the part about SHIELD or whoever not having a file on the Green Goblin), in charge of the most powerful, covert government agency in the US (HAMMER), there can be no story Dark Reign.

    But I can tell you it has to do with The American Spirit -- who, to refresh your memory, is kind of a straight cross between Quality Comics' UNCLE SAM and DC's THE SPECTRE. Or even, and you know what, this *just now* occurred to me in thinking about it -- Bruce Carter is a little like Ebeneezer Scrooge here (not characterization-wise, but in terms of the role he's playing in this particular part of the story), being visited by The Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come. Yes, that's really a pretty good way of thinking about it, now that I consider. Let me review the relevant scene in the book and I'll get back to you.

    PS -- OK, I was making fun there with the PLAYBOY comment. But my reaction was just... only ONE ?? (MASKS#1 by Chris Roberson & Alex Ross) And if that's the only book you can respect/enjoy from DE, I'm shuddering to imagine the rest of the comics publishers out there in the marketplace and the product they're currently offering, and how it figures into your quality standards. Those are high standards to me, almost alarmingly, impossibly unrealistic standards of quality. To me, it's sort of like hearing a baseball fan say, "Yeah, well, if these stumblebums can't even hit a home run correctly, what good are they?" Or, as I was trying to allude by metaphor, "Nope, don't bother me, I'm waiting for Miss September."
    Last edited by pulphero; 08-18-2014, 07:22 PM.

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    • #62
      Great!! Thanks. I hope we can clear this up...(for me, too.)

      Originally posted by pulphero View Post
      OK, let me get back to you on that one in just a little bit. Not at home to reference the collection right now, and... well, it WAS 2006, and my memory for plot details isn't quite as sharp as it was at one time (there's just been a lot of comics under the bridge), and I'm going to be completely candid here -- honest, that part (yes, I know it IS kind of important to the entire thing) just wasn't as memorable to me, as say, PLAYBOY's Sept. 1986 centerfold.

      And the other thing is I don't want to mangle it up and explain it badly, so for now, let me just say that there WAS a rationale given, and IIRC it wasn't necessarily a really strong one that you immediately said to yourself "Of course! That explains his motivation, it just fits right". No, I'll be honest and say it was more along the lines of, you sort of accept it as a gimme (or what I like to call the Clark Kent's Glasses plot device). But I can tell you it has to do with The American Spirit -- who, to refresh your memory, is kind of a straight cross between Quality Comics' UNCLE SAM and DC's THE SPECTRE. Or even, and you know what, this *just now* occurred to me in thinking about it -- Bruce Carter is a little like Ebeneezer Scrooge here (not characterization-wise, but in terms of the role he's playing in this particular part of the story), being visited by The Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come. Yes, that's really a pretty good way of thinking about it, now that I consider. Let me review the relevant scene in the book and I'll get back to you.
      Thanks, pulp hero. Yeah, I can't lay my hands on my books today. But I'll try tomorrow.
      But really, thanks for giving this a-go. Because I was Really, REALLY looking forward to Dynamite establishing itself with this series and these characters ...but I crashed early and it was on this story point ...and...

      WHY DID THE HEROES TEAM-UP AND TRY TO STOP THE ALLIES FROM BOMBING JAPAN TO END THE WAR AND SAVE THOUSANDS--- if not tens of thousands ---- of lives.!!!???????....on both sides.

      Everyone wanted the War over...and no more people to be killed. That wasn't going to happen without the bomb.
      The Allies were preparing for a very costly invasion of the Island of Japan where the Japanese men, women, and children would fight and die for every square inch of their homeland.

      Here, we have a proctologist's view of the war ....and the "heroes"?? trying to stop the bomb from being dropped.
      Samson even jumps up and is blinded by the bomb going off.

      By this point, I know these aren't the heroes that fought against the Axis Powers to save liberty and freedom and the American way....that previous comic book stories had told us about. (Centerfolds aside.)
      Last edited by Magno; 08-18-2014, 06:31 PM. Reason: clean up

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Magno View Post
        Everyone wanted the War over...and no more people to be killed. That wasn't going to happen without the bomb.
        The Allies were preparing for a very costly invasion of the Island of Japan where the Japanese men, women, and children would fight and die for every square inch of their homeland.

        Here, we have a proctologist's view of the war ....and the "heroes"?? trying to stop the bomb from being dropped.
        Samson even jumps up and is blinded by the bomb going off.

        By this point, I know these aren't the heroes that fought against the Axis Powers to save liberty and freedom and the American way....that previous comic book stories had told us about. (Centerfolds aside.)
        Yeah, those kinds of ethical issues might seem clear-cut to you. Maybe not to everyone. But here you are a guy living in the US, having grown up (I'm going to speculate, please correct me if I'm assuming wrongly) in post-war peacetime America, where history books taught you the "official version" of history according to the US perspective. On the other hand, to someone who lives or grew up in Japan, maybe not such a no-brainer. You know, if you watch the original Gojira (1954), and here I'm very specifically talking about the original Japanese version (available subtitled), one of the things that makes that a great movie (it is part of the Criterion Collection), and MORE than just a "great monster movie" is that there is a powerful subtext to it. Godzilla represents something, is a metaphor; what, exactly, that is, is for the viewer to ponder for him or herself.

        The executive decision was made in secrecy; there could be no possible public debate about the morality involved. But wait, in THIS story, someone does know about it before it happens. Is it possible for this to be viewed by someone in that moment in time as making the US look like the ethically-challenged party in this scenario? Well, certainly not if the story was told in the Golden Age comic books published during WWII.

        There's a very similar storyline regarding difficult choices of ethics and morality going on in NEW AVENGERS right now, which I had a deep discussion of with ChastMastr over on another thread, so it's kind of funny that you brought this one up after all this time. I'll simply note that from Chast's POV, his conclusion was "The Ends Don't Justify the Means".

        I don't want to get into a repeat of that same debate here. Maybe to you it really is just that cut-and-dried, no two ways about it. But I'm just saying there's enough gray morality in there that not everyone might be in total agreement about it. Sure, you can point fingers and say, "But THEY started it, they're the villains here," or even "Well, yes, it was a terrible thing, but it just HAD to be done, it was the ONLY way". But the populations of the cites of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not fly over Pearl Harbor and drop bombs - there's a pretty good chance they weren't even consulted on the idea.

        One final point is worth pondering here. Even given that you might consider this a clear-cut case of "the ONLY way" as far as our own history is concerned, pause for a moment to reflect that this story is NOT the story of our world's history. It is the story of a world unlike our own, in which people with incredible (you should pardon the expression) "Superpowers" EXIST. In THEIR world, was the US dropping the atomic bomb STILL "the ONLY way" to end the war and save US lives? Gee, all of a sudden "preparing for a costly invasion" just got reduced to "Thank God the All Star Squadron did their patriotic duty and volunteered for this mission". Pretty sure I saw that "piece of cake" scenario played out on a dozen Golden Age comic book covers, too -- Superman just swooped in and grabbed Hitler and Tojo by their jacket collars, etc. And in all fairness, there's not much of a difference between the numbers and powers that could be brought to bear in the PSP universe and Earth-2's All Star Squadron, except there's no magic spells keeping the PSP heroes out of the actual war.
        Last edited by pulphero; 08-18-2014, 09:33 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by pulphero View Post
          Yeah, those kinds of ethical issues might seem clear-cut to you. Maybe not to everyone. But here you are a guy living in the US, having grown up (I'm going to speculate, please correct me if I'm assuming wrongly) in post-war peacetime America, where history books taught you the "official version" of history according to the US perspective. On the other hand, to someone who lives or grew up in Japan, maybe not such a no-brainer. You know, if you watch the original Gojira (1954), and here I'm very specifically talking about the original Japanese version (available subtitled), one of the things that makes that a great movie (it is part of the Criterion Collection), and MORE than just a "great monster movie" is that there is a powerful subtext to it. Godzilla represents something, is a metaphor; what, exactly, that is, is for the viewer to ponder for him or herself.

          The executive decision was made in secrecy; there could be no possible public debate about the morality involved. But wait, in THIS story, someone does know about it before it happens. Is it possible for this to be viewed by someone in that moment in time as making the US look like the ethically-challenged party in this scenario? Well, certainly not if the story was told in the Golden Age comic books published during WWII.

          There's a very similar storyline regarding difficult choices of ethics and morality going on in NEW AVENGERS right now, which I had a deep discussion of with ChastMastr over on another thread, so it's kind of funny that you brought this one up after all this time. I'll simply note that from Chast's POV, his conclusion was "The Ends Don't Justify the Means".

          I don't want to get into a repeat of that same debate here. Maybe to you it really is just that cut-and-dried, no two ways about it. But I'm just saying there's enough gray morality in there that not everyone might be in total agreement about it. Sure, you can point fingers and say, "But THEY started it, they're the villains here," or even "Well, yes, it was a terrible thing, but it just HAD to be done, it was the ONLY way". But the populations of the cites of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not fly over Pearl Harbor and drop bombs - there's a pretty good chance they weren't even consulted on the idea.
          I'm not sure I understand your point.
          There is a "reality" involved here. And, yes, the victors get to write the history. But History does tell us that Truman made the decision to drop the bomb and to end the war.

          The reasons were few. If you were President, wouldn't you want to stop the War if dropping the bomb on two cities would get the enemy to surrender.?? I would. Especially if it meant that "not one more life would be lost on my side. "

          I'm sure you know some of the things Japan was doing during the War. I would say that the "good guys'" won.

          I'm sorry that it came to Nagasaki and Hiroshima paying the price to end the war....and that they weren't consulted on the idea.... but if it meant saving American lives.... and even saving Japanese lives.... then I'm glad we had the superior warfare to win.

          Our "heroes" (especially today...well, a few years ago) should have wanted the United States to win the war.
          He!l, they should have wanted to jump aboard the Enola Gay and throw that bomb down out of the plane.

          These guys, in PSP, had been fighting the War against the Axis powers up until then. Why would they turn around and try to "save" a Japanese city.?? This is twisted logic ...written by a madman or a Leftist. (Not much difference.)
          I was aware that Godzilla represented Nuclear (Or Atomic) Power. That power plant that is still emitting radiation could have been the reason for Godzilla's return recently....

          But, yes, the War was clear to me. The "good guys" won and the "bad guys" lost. Cut and dried.
          The United States is not a perfect nation.... we've had our mistakes. But we beat the Fascist German and Italian Nations....and what they were doing in the Holocaust ...and we beat the Imperialist Japanese ...and cruelty of that Imperialist Nation. ( Check Nanking.) These guys were doing horrific things to people and on a large scale.

          Sorry, but if their side had won, I would NOT be arguing the merits of the Allies. I'll take Western Civilization over anything others want to offer.

          And a leftist revisionary rewrite of History I will not abide.
          Last edited by Magno; 08-18-2014, 09:29 PM.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Magno View Post
            I'm not sure I understand your point.
            There is a "reality" involved here. And, yes, the victors get to write the history. But History does tell us that Truman made the decision to drop the bomb and to end the war.

            The reasons were few. If you were President, wouldn't you want to stop the War if dropping the bomb on two cities would get the enemy to surrender.?? I would. Especially if it meant that "not one more life would be lost on my side. "

            I'm sure you know some of the things Japan was doing during the War. I would say that the "good guys'" won.

            I'm sorry that it came to Nagasaki and Hiroshima paying the price to end the war....and that they weren't consulted on the idea.... but if it meant saving American lives.... and even saving Japanese lives.... then I'm glad we had the superior warfare to win.

            Our "heroes" (especially today...well, a few years ago) should have wanted the United States to win the war.
            He!l, they should have wanted to jump aboard the Enola Gay and throw that bomb down out of the plane.

            These guys, in PSP, had been fighting the War against the Axis powers up until then. Why would they turn around and try to "save" a Japanese city.?? This is twisted logic ...written by a madman or a Leftist. (Not much difference.)
            I was aware that Godzilla represented Nuclear (Or Atomic) Power. That power plant that is still emitting radiation could have been the reason for Godzilla's return recently....

            But, yes, the War was clear to me. The "good guys" won and the "bad guys" lost. Cut and dried.
            The United States is not a perfect nation.... we've had our mistakes. But we beat the Fascist German and Italian Nations....and what they were doing in the Holocaust ...and we beat the Imperialist Japanese ...and cruelty of that Imperialist Nation. ( Check Nanking.) These guys were doing horrific things to people and on a large scale.

            Sorry, but if their side had won, I would NOT be arguing the merits of the Allies. I'll take Western Civilization over anything others want to offer.

            And a leftist revisionary rewrite of History I will not abide.
            Look at that. I had edited in some additional comments while you were composing your own reply... see my last paragraph, it's the most relevant.

            Of course I'm aware of everything you say here. As I say, I'm not debating you on this, you believe what you believe. But PSP did not take place in the real world, so the "reality involved" that you mention has now changed COMPLETELY. That's all I have to say on this.
            Last edited by pulphero; 08-18-2014, 09:47 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by pulphero View Post
              YI'll simply note that from Chast's POV, his conclusion was "The Ends Don't Justify the Means".
              And as with that, so with this. Nothing more to add from me on this.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                And as with that, so with this. Nothing more to add from me on this.
                Please don't think I'm slagging you here in any way, Chast. In this case, it's to the point. It's not that I'm saying it's clear-cut either way. But you can't just dismiss "The Ends Don't Justify the Means" as one of your major considerations. To you it might be the Only Consideration, but just let me have this for the sake of a mental exercise.

                Yeah it's kind of funny how that just came up, and it's exactly the same "Vs." scenario of The Ends Don't Justify vs. The Greatest Good as in New Avengers. I don't even want to go into how that "Greatest Number" might have been calculated in WWII terms, or the relative "exchange rate" between Allied and Axis lives. Never mind good guys and bad guys, what about "people"? Not everything involves nothing but "enemy soldiers".

                Boy, we really lucked out in this instance. We happen to have super-people in the equation.

                If we're going to start speculating about if the Japanese have their own "All Star Squadron", or maybe an army of Gigantors, then it's back to the old drawing board, I guess.
                Last edited by pulphero; 08-18-2014, 10:28 PM.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                  Please don't think I'm slagging you here in any way, Chast. In this case, it's to the point. It's not that I'm saying it's clear-cut either way. But you can't just dismiss "The Ends Don't Justify the Means" as one of your major considerations. To you it might be the Only Consideration, but just let me have this for the sake of a mental exercise.

                  Yeah it's kind of funny how that just came up, and it's exactly the same "Vs." scenario of The Ends Don't Justify vs. The Greatest Good as in New Avengers. I don't even want to go into how that "Greatest Number" might have been calculated in WWII terms, or the relative "exchange rate" between Allied and Axis lives. Never mind good guys and bad guys, what about "people"? Not everything involves nothing but "enemy soldiers".
                  Well, wait. I think -- if i had to do it today--- I would blast the heck out of ISIS to save people in the are being killed, raped, buried alive, ...children crucified ... their heads cut off. A five year old cut in half. Sorry, but there is real Evil in the world and we should be kicking butt.

                  I would blast the turbans off them and their camels to fight off ISIS and what they are doing.

                  But more to the point, what did that spirit tell Fighting Yank that made sense. I could never follow his logic.
                  WHAT WAS HE TELLING F.Y. THAT WAS EVEN REASONABLE.!!???

                  "Of course I'm aware of everything you say here. As I say, I'm not debating you on this, you believe what you believe. But PSP did not take place in the real world, so the "reality involved" that you mention has now changed COMPLETELY. That's all I have to say on this."
                  IF THE REALITY CHANGES AS MUCH AS IT DID.... THAT'S SCREWED UP!!

                  THESE HEROES WOULD BE "ACTING OUT OF CHARACTER".
                  I OFFER AS PROOF ALL OF THE COVERS THAT THESE HEROES WERE ON!!
                  THEY WERE FIGHTING THE NAZIS AND JAPANESE .....NOT TRYING TO SAVE THEM.

                  ROSS AND COMPANY ARE REALLY SCREWED UP.... AND "REALITY INVOLVED" IS A TWISTED TRUTH THAT SHOULD NOT BE FOISTED ON US.

                  You asked me to complain and give reasons.
                  Pulp, I still think your well informed and add tremendously to the threads but I don't agree with you here.
                  Last edited by Magno; 08-18-2014, 10:28 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Magno View Post
                    IF THE REALITY CHANGES AS MUCH AS IT DID.... THAT'S SCREWED UP!!
                    I guess one man's "screwed up" is another man's "well now, there's an interesting new wrinkle". But you also have to consider that Golden Age comic books were not consciously telling "alternate reality" stories.
                    Last edited by pulphero; 08-18-2014, 10:33 PM.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Magno View Post
                      Sorry, but there is real Evil in the world and we should be kicking butt.
                      THESE HEROES WOULD BE "ACTING OUT OF CHARACTER".
                      I OFFER AS PROOF ALL OF THE COVERS THAT THESE HEROES WERE ON!!
                      THEY WERE FIGHTING THE NAZIS AND JAPANESE .....NOT TRYING TO SAVE THEM.
                      Magno, as a preamble to the following statements (which will be nothing more than a description of my OWN philosophy) I feel the need to state flatly in no uncertain terms that the following is not intended in any way to persuade or to judge.

                      1) That's because they are comic book characters, not real people.
                      2) (IN MY VIEW) Real evil is not absolute, it is relative. It cannot be pointed to as being identifiable by sight as someone with a handlebar mustache and a top hat, or dressed in red with horns and a pitchfork. Conversely, that is EXACTLY the way it is identified in comic books. Not just visually, but by using character types, cliches, pigeonholing. It is important to have a nice clear shorthand form to make sure the writer's intent is being correctly perceived by the reader.
                      3) How is it relative? By that I mean, compare the exact same situation or scenario, in which the exact same actions are performed by two different organisms interacting with each other. In scenario A, the organisms are animals. In scenario B, the organisms are homo sapiens. The value judgment determined here is contextual, not absolute. It it not the action being performed that is evil or not evil, it is the relation of the two organisms being observed.
                      4) #3 presents a rather simple example for demonstration purposes. There are other examples, confining ourselves strictly to the considerations of human society, that present far more complex ethical and moral dilemmas, due to the complexity of several different factors or parameters involved in that equation.
                      5) If I lost you there, to hopefully clarify somewhat, answer this question YES or NO, to your own satisfaction (I'll even make it a bit less murky for you by dis-including all non-humans in this consideration): IS KILLING EVIL? Now, unless you immediately went for the NO answer, which most people wouldn't, try to modify the basic question by plugging in different combinations of people doing the killing and people being killed. At some point it may even occur to you to try to alter the relations between the people on both ends of the equation, by asking yourself WHY is the person killing, or WHY is the other person being killed. Is there a motive, or a reason? Try to think of as many situations as you can. Policeman in the line of duty? Soldier? "Mercy killing?" Assisted suicide? Death Row? Revenge for a crime worse than killing?, etc. Hopefully you begin to see that "killing" is not the evil here, the important moral value judgment is discerned by the context between the two and the variable situations. It's true I seem to belabor this exercise a bit too much, but you've probably only really come up with half a dozen types of basic situations, when there are hundreds. And some would still label killing EVIL, and merely add some addendum regarding "mitigating factors", but again, don't forget the "mercy" situations - that's a good exercise to try to come up with different variations. You can consider that you haven't really begun to play this little morality game yet when you realize that every situation so far involved a single killer and a single "kill-ee". Try those same initial variations and change one side by multiplying the number of "kill-ees". You can even go the other route and have multiple killers with a single "kill-ee", as in death by firing squad. Now make it even murkier by adding another level to it, the executive, who doesn't involve himself in the action, merely issues an order.
                      6) The KILLING situation is merely ONE example, of things to which we apply or derive MANY different shadings of moral judgments. And yet through ALL of this, we are talking about one single ACTION, the very nature of which never changes, it is only people on either end of that action, and the background that changes. But when you consider ALL the possible actions that have perhaps SOME what we shall call "negative consequence", you realize how many hundreds of thousands of variations there are. REAL LIFE is not like a comic book; there are not simply "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys". If it seems that way, it's only when you purposely choose the most extreme examples. MOST people fall in between such labels, just as MOST actions are not as extreme as killing.
                      It doesn't matter whether you agree with anything I've said above , and I'm not judging you in any way if you don't. Whether you do or don't, or can even understand it, is probably irrelevant. It exists only as some attempt by way of explanation of my own thought processes.
                      Last edited by pulphero; 08-19-2014, 01:51 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                        Please don't think I'm slagging you here in any way, Chast.
                        Lord, no, not at all! I mean that I think the principle involved is indeed quite specifically relevant, but that that's all I feel I need to say about this. You said it and now I don't have to angst about saying it myself.

                        Carry on.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Magno View Post
                          Well, wait. I think -- if i had to do it today--- I would blast the heck out of ISIS to save people in the are being killed, raped, buried alive, ...children crucified ... their heads cut off. A five year old cut in half. Sorry, but there is real Evil in the world and we should be kicking butt.
                          Actually, I will add one thing here: I would gladly push a button that would atomize all of ISIS with a completely clear conscience.

                          But I would not atomize countless innocent civilians to do so.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                            Lord, no, not at all! I mean that I think the principle involved is indeed quite specifically relevant, but that that's all I feel I need to say about this. You said it and now I don't have to angst about saying it myself.

                            Carry on.
                            Well, I was kind of worried because I sort of borrowed without permission, and (in light of our previous debate) wasn't sure if you understood that I wasn't attempting any sort or irony or sarcasm. Yeah, I've gone there on occasion, but not this time.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                              I would gladly push a button that would atomize all of ISIS with a completely clear conscience.
                              Why is everyone being so mean to her? Can't I keep my sentimental memories of an innocent adolescent crush without people trampling all over it?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                                Why is everyone being so mean to her? Can't I keep my sentimental memories of an innocent adolescent crush without people trampling all over it?
                                That weirds me out as well. And ironically since it's a group who certainly wouldn't approve of either the heroine or the Egyptian goddess...

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