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  • #76
    Originally posted by pulphero View Post
    I guess one man's "screwed up" is another man's "well now, there's an interesting new wrinkle". But you also have to consider that Golden Age comic books were not consciously telling "alternate reality" stories.
    I think you miss a point that I'm making.
    I'm talking about the twisted reality (hardly "an interesting wrinkle") but if it is, it changes everything that these Golden Age heroes are built on.
    That's not a decent point you make and I expected better.

    And this is not getting at the main point of the spirit that talked to Fighting Yank and the reasoning that's going on in the book.

    It will come down to what I think is a poorly written series... but again... what I think. I'm trying to get at the very core of the series and just some of the reasons that it failed.

    What were you arguing before.?? That if we didn't like something we should be able to discuss the point and support it with arguments. Isn't that what you were arguing for.??

    And I think there is Absolute Good...and Absolute Evil....

    You sound like an English major ...who's a deconstructionist.

    If people were coming to your neighborhood and cutting off heads.... burying your wife alive... crucifying your children.... you would have a pretty good look at Evil. Absolute Evil.

    There is an objective reality.... the computer is either on or it's off.
    A plane the lifts off the ground.... we know one thing. That plane is going to land. One way or another.
    There is an objective reality, my friend.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Magno View Post
      I think you miss a point that I'm making.
      I'm talking about the twisted reality (hardly "an interesting wrinkle") but if it is, it changes everything that these Golden Age heroes are built on.
      That's not a decent point you make and I expected better.

      And this is not getting at the main point of the spirit that talked to Fighting Yank and the reasoning that's going on in the book.

      It will come down to what I think is a poorly written series... but again... what I think. I'm trying to get at the very core of the series and just some of the reasons that it failed.

      What were you arguing before.?? That if we didn't like something we should be able to discuss the point and support it with arguments. Isn't that what you were arguing for.??

      And I think there is Absolute Good...and Absolute Evil....

      You sound like an English major ...who's a deconstructionist.
      Thank you for the compliment. I don't actually hold the degree, but I do appreciate the sentiment.
      (On the downside, I was sort of attempting to do my best "philosophy major" impression, so if that didn't come through, I guess I must have muffed it rather badly. )

      Originally posted by Magno View Post
      If people were coming to your neighborhood and cutting off heads.... burying your wife alive... crucifying your children.... you would have a pretty good look at Evil. Absolute Evil.
      What if I'm unmarried and have no children? It occurs to me that if they cut MY head off, I wouldn't be in much of a position to make any value determinations about them.
      Nothing is absolute. Most people would put that "Absolute Evil" caption on a photo of Adolf Hitler. It's sort of hard to believe he was once as innocent as a newborn babe. Because he WAS a newborn babe. Unless you have some alternative supernatural origin story. Yes, "Adolf Hitler", the one that people think of when you say that name, was indeed MADE, not born. The question would then arise, at exactly which point did he become "Absolute"? Plus, if he's going to stake a claim to the title, he'll have to duke it out with the Red Skull (...or Idi Amin... the only reason I chose Red Skull for comparison purposes is that Idi Amin never had much of a comic book career) over which one is the "Absolutest" when it comes to Evil. If either one is MORE evil than the other, then NEITHER is absolute; one is merely "Greater Than" while the other is "Less Than", the other in relative Evil-ness.

      Originally posted by Magno View Post
      There is an objective reality.... the computer is either on or it's off.
      So... it's Absolute Good OR Absolute Evil? On or off? Strictly binary? I don't know about your computer. Right now my laptop is in "hibernate" mode. It also has a "sleep" mode function. Yes, there ARE states "in between" the Absolute.

      Originally posted by Magno View Post
      A plane the lifts off the ground.... we know one thing. That plane is going to land. One way or another.
      What about when it's in the air? That's an "in between" state. What about if the plane is constantly refueled while it's in the air? What if the plane is abducted by a UFO? (Saw that in a comic book once. We were talking about comic books, right?)

      Originally posted by Magno View Post
      There is an objective reality, my friend.
      Magno, I think you missed the part where I said I'm not debating you on this. Your expectations are YOURS, I am not making any judgment. I'll merely summarize the difference in our viewpoints as one where I do not feel that objective reality is as sharply defined and neatly categorized and labeled as I perceive you do. That's really all I have to say. Since this really hasn't much bearing in my view on the fictional stories that we are discussing, I'd consider it a favor if you could allow us to disagree on our philosophical underpinnings without being judgmental about it. Such a debate is pointless in this forum, since neither one of us is liable to change decades of programming (self- or otherwise) within a few brilliantly-constructed paragraphs or sentences, no matter how incisive the underlying logic or well-argued the reasoning.

      The only thing I have to comment on here is that I'll note that objective reality is not found in comic books. Well, most comic books, anyway. Superhero comics, especially. If it were, I doubt that many people would read them. You have every right to disagree.

      As for Fighting Yank, please... I've just been super-busy lately. Give me a chance and I'll get back to you on what was going on there in the story. Work and sleep need to take priority here, so I beg your indulgence.
      Last edited by pulphero; 08-20-2014, 04:30 AM.

      Comment


      • #78
        Magno, one thing does occur to me here. There is a definite "schism" (which you refer to as "screwed up" or "twisted reality") between comic book stories as approached in the 1940s Golden Age comic books, and the type of comic books that are aimed at a 21st Century reader. In this case, none of the PSP superheroes experienced a period of evolution (as comic book characters) that long-running characters like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, or Captain America did. This may render the stories "out of character" to you, since Golden Age stories (despite incorporating real-world elements like the WWII background) have to be reconfigured to appeal to a different audience, a different culture.

        Golden Age comics use a very simple "just stories" approach. They aren't overly sophisticated. Modern comics such as PSP are approaching the characters (including the real-world history elements) from an "alternative history story" point of view. In that way, they are similar to "imaginary stories" from Silver Age DC comics, or "What If?" stories from Marvel comics. The basic concept is that some small change results in history taking a completely different turn. The PSP story has 2 of these small (but crucial) changes, one the idea that superheroes did exist back in WWII, and that if they did exist, history would not be as it is in the real world. The second change is that the superheroes did know about the planned dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Despite the greater complexity of these stories compared to those aimed at Golden Age comic book readers, they are ALSO still "JUST stories".

        One can even debate your assertion that these characters are "OUT of character", in other words, not acting like "heroes". They are acting according to the moral principle of "heroes ACT to save innocent lives". In your view, you may not agree with the value judgment being evinced by the characters, compared to your own assessment of the "innocence" of the lives of the Japanese people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. I would only add the fact that these targets had no strategic or military value to the Allies, and that, despite what you may think about the culpability of the "bad guys" here, the ordinary Japanese people themselves suffered great hardships domestically due to their government's imperialistic military policies. There are also historians who think that despite the late declaration of a state of war between Russia and Japan, just prior to the US decision to drop the bombs, the decision itself represented less of a military strategy for victory than it did a demonstration of power, designed as much to send a message to the Russian government. Even at that time, the US recognized in Communism its chief rival for ideological dominance in the world sphere in the coming decades. One might well ask what the average citizen of Hiroshima had to do with any of this in terms of culpability. None of them voted the Emperor into office, and the Emperor himself really wasn't even the one dictating state policy. Soldiers can be assumed to have made some sort of personal decision to support the ideological values that they are supposed to be representing, noncombatants not so much (although even here, things aren't always clear-cut -- there is the consideration of duty to one's country, if not to its government's ideologies, as seen in the DC war series Enemy Ace). If the only way to stop the terrorists is to blow up the building with the hostages still in it, you start to question the value judgments of the people fighting the terrorists -- even if it must be admitted incontrovertibly that they HAVE stopped the terrorists from terrorizing, and thwarted any potential of their further terrorizing. In a nutshell, did the end justify the means? Not everyone may be in the same YES or NO column on this one. The other ethical principle relevant to this situation is that of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". In this scenario, the two ethical principles may be said to be diametrically opposed to each other. If one is satisfied, then the other may be prevented from being satisfied. There is also the consideration of how the calculation of "the many" is determined, since this is not a REAL number, but a potential or a projected statistic, and one that could change if another variable were introduced into the equation (say for example, the unforeseen death or assassination of a key military leader or political policy-maker). But this story isn't one of the real world, it's a story about superheroes, and if a superhero thinks there's a better way to save lives, then that's what he'll do, regardless of the legality of his actions. One example of a "better" potential resolution to the war would have been if somehow the US were able to simply destroy the enemy's ABILITY to make war, rather than to attempt to break their WILL to wage that same war (robbing them of the CHOICE to wage war). A couple of the ways that might have been achieved would have been if the US used the bomb to destroy the Japanese fleet, or to destroy factories in which planes, ships and other weapons were manufactured, or cut off crucial supplies to the army like food or petroleum. The number of potential options existing greatly improves if we allow for the possibility of American superheroes intervening in events as they ACTUALLY happened in the real world. If one is diligent and well-read in Golden Age comics, one can even document a number of stories in which key victories against the Axis powers are portrayed as hinging on the very involvement of those superheroes. These events had no cumulative effect in Golden Age comics in terms of any "continuity". Needless to say, they didn't affect the course of the war one iota in real life, except to make their readers feel better and provide some entertainment value. The key difference here between the Golden Age stories and PSP is that the Golden Age stories couldn't allow for any permanent change in the "universe" these characters existed in, because that would have made them noticeably different to the world their readers lived in. Since PSP has the advantage of hindsight concerning real-world history, their story CAN allow for permanent changes to affect the "history" of the story-universe they inhabit.

        All of the foregoing is merely SOME attempt to provide a rationale for the motivations of the characters in the story. I obviously can't force you to accept it or to enjoy the story.
        Last edited by pulphero; 08-19-2014, 10:28 PM.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by pulphero View Post
          I don’t come to these message boards looking for a fight. No, I’m always hoping for an interesting dialog, exchange or debate,...
          Then allow me to point out that answering with "blatant sarcasm" doesn't promote the environment that you claim to want.

          When someone responds to your points with a longer version of STFU, no matter how researched and valid that point might be, they're probably responging more to your "tone" than the facts you've presented.
          Last edited by Captain Canuck; 08-21-2014, 09:12 AM.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
            Then allow me to point out that answering with "blatant sarcasm" doesn't promote the environment that you claim to want.

            When someone responds to your points with a longer version of STFU, no matter how researched and valid that point might be, they're probably responging more to your "tone" than the facts you've presented.
            No allowance for self-acknowledgement, Captain? Yes, I was going to extremes here to make a point, and admitting my own snarkiness in doing so.

            My basic problem with all the "kvetching" or negativism is that it just casts a pall on the fun we're supposed to be having here as readers. I tried, in the first post, to be "snarky" in fun (while hopefully making a point), and point it out with self-observational commentary and the use of smilies.

            Are there problems? OF COURSE there are problems. NOBODY (including me) ENJOYS it when titles we like are cancelled for low sales.
            Nobody WANTS to see a title shipping late. What can we do about it? NOTHING. Here are our choices, very simply put:
            1) BUY (for whatever reason you deem worthwhile) a Dynamite comic
            2) REFUSE TO BUY (for whatever reason you deem worthwhile) a Dynamite comic
            3) DECIDE which of those two applies to whatever products Dynamite is offering (to your own satisfaction) and why

            Can we discuss it when a comic is not all it should be? Absolutely, and we should. Not everyone is likely to be of the same mind on this point, so let's hear the pros and cons according to your POV. One problem with that, though. You can't really participate in that part unless you chose #1 from the list above after making up your mind about #3.

            But quite honestly, what I seem to be seeing from a lot of people is that they've chosen #2 (nothing wrong with that), but they feel the need to just throw that out there. Nothing specific to say about why they didn't buy anything in particular, just general "I DON'T LIKE IT".

            Now, regarding how DE runs their company, a lot of people seem to want to A) Give them advice on how it should be done, or B) point out things like: My favorite title was cancelled, Why didn't this ship on time, etc.

            I'm not quite clear on some things here about WHY people NEED to post about this. They're not buying something, not reading something. What else is there to discuss? Just blowing off steam is the only reason I can perceive, but I might be wrong and these people are assuming that "criticizing" Dynamite is the same as "doing something about it".
            As if... I don't know. Do they somehow think DE isn't AWARE that a book was late, or a title was cancelled for low sales, and DE just doesn't see that as a problem? THEY KNOW, trust me, they know. Like, "HEY Dynamite, you need to pay attention to WHAT I WANT, because you're not getting it. See this thing I'm pointing at? Well, in case it somehow escaped your attention, get it fixed right now". Merely pointing at something and saying "This is a problem" doesn't DO anything, isn't offering a solution to fix it. Because all you're REALLY seeing is the symptom, not the cause. Dynamite knows the causes, you don't, because you aren't privy to that kind of insider info. Sure, if you look up estimated sales figures and they're low, you could probably guess that was the reason. But WHY were they low? Most people want to lay that on Dynamite, but I'm not buying that theory. DE goes to the trouble of licensing a character, hiring a writer and artist, and then after that they Just Stop Caring Whether It Succeeds Or Fails? Of course not! They want everything to succeed, and when it doesn't, well YOU've lost one comic book to read, DE has lost Money, Time, and Effort. You think YOU're disappointed? How do you think DE feels? Like it or not, the fact that we as individual readers don't get what we want isn't Dynamite's fault. It's not ANYBODY's fault. Sometimes this is just the way things are. YOU can't control everything. DE can't control everything. There seems to be an implicit assumption on the part of the complainers that "If only DE would DO WHAT I WANT, that would fix all THEIR problems, I'D be happy, and they'd make a ton of money." But it really doesn't work that way. You have to realize that each individual reader in one small drop in the bucket. It's the WHOLE contents of the bucket that DE has to concern itself with.

            Or is it more of a "ARISE, Dynamite Readers! You have the power! Boycott like I'm doing! Withhold your money! WE are the True Rulers of Dynamite!" DE is not a democracy, nor are DE's priorities the same as some individual reader's priorities. Because DE has to serve ITSELF first, by serving MANY different readers, some of whose likes and dislikes are VERY different than the guy moaning and complaining about HIS entertainment needs not being met. The finger-pointing Blame Game just isn't going to result in ANY change happening. At very most, it'll just get a few people reading these boards to STOP reading DE books. How does that help anyone???

            No, what I'm seeing here is some sort of schism in which (apparently) people seem to think that THEIR priorities (what THEY want) has some relationship to Dynamite's priorities (#1 of which would be, Keeping the Company In Business). You know, if DE doesn't do that FIRST, then they won't be providing ANY entertainment for anybody. So, the only real effect this negativism is going to have is to make the poster feel better by getting it off his chest. But for ME, the guy who come here to read stuff, that is just a HUGE downer that's raining on whatever is left of the parade. It's like nobody even appreciates the effort they're making. Nope, they get ALL the blame when it fails, and NONE of the credit for attempting it in the first place.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by pulphero View Post
              Now, regarding how DE runs their company, a lot of people seem to want to A) Give them advice on how it should be done, or B) point out things like: My favorite title was cancelled, Why didn't this ship on time, etc.

              I'm not quite clear on some things here about WHY people NEED to post about this. They're not buying something, not reading something. What else is there to discuss? Just blowing off steam is the only reason I can perceive, but I might be wrong and these people are assuming that "criticizing" Dynamite is the same as "doing something about it".
              It's called venting.
              Always remember, Murphy was an optimist
              Munchkin 1, 2, 4, 7 Super Munchkin 1&2, Munchkin Bites 1&2, Munchkin Fu, Star Munchkin Deluxe and Star 2
              http://ghornet.deviantart.com/

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                No allowance for self-acknowledgement, Captain? Yes, I was going to extremes here to make a point, and admitting my own snarkiness in doing so.

                My basic problem with all the "kvetching" or negativism is that it just casts a pall on the fun we're supposed to be having here as readers. I tried, in the first post, to be "snarky" in fun (while hopefully making a point), and point it out with self-observational commentary and the use of smilies.
                Not only do I understand your point, I agree with it pretty well in its entirety (including acknowledging that Dynamite has improved in the punctuality department, for which they don't get enough credit).

                Mine is only that the reaction you occasionally get is more based around your method of delivery of your point than the point itself. That's my view of it, anyway. That you acknowledge being snarky doesn't make you any else snarky to the guy at the other end so don't be surprised at a negative reaction.

                Hey, like it was stated earlier, you're free to do what you want (within the rules, of course). I'm not even suggesting you do things differently because it's not my place to. I was just pointing what seemed like a bump in the road to meeting your stated goal.

                Comment


                • #83
                  More Absolute Evil.

                  Get back to you as soon as I can:

                  Gen. Hayden: Journalist's Beheading Shows 'Absolute Evil'.

                  Gen. Hayden: Journalist's Beheading Shows 'Absolute Evil'
                  Wednesday, 20 Aug 2014 02:19 PM
                  By Wanda Carruthers

                  Share:

                  Get Short Link | Email Article | Comment | Contact Us | Print | A A



                  inShare
                  The beheading of an American journalist by the Islamic State enables Americans to see the "absolute evil" of the terrorist organization, Gen. Michael Hayden told Newsmax TV's "America's Forum."

                  The group, formerly known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), posted a video of the beheading of James Wright Foley on Tuesday and has threatened to kill Steven Sotloff, another U.S. journalist they are holding hostage. Hayden said that without intelligence information, there was "very little we can do."

                  Story continues below video.


                  Note: Watch Newsmax TV now on DIRECTV Ch. 349 and DISH Ch. 223
                  Get Newsmax TV on your cable system Click Here Now

                  "We really did get a chance yesterday to look at absolute evil in its face. It's a reminder of what it is we're dealing with here in the Middle East," said Hayden, a retired Air Force general and former director of the Central Intelligence Agency and National Security Agency.

                  The rise of IS came from "pre-existing pathologies within the Middle East," rather than the result of U.S. foreign policy, Hayden said. He outlined a three-step plan for how the United States could arrest the advance of the militant organization.

                  Vote Now: Do You Approve Or Disapprove of President Obama's Job Performance?

                  The first step would be to "decapitate to try to take its leadership off the battlefield," Hayden said. The next step would be to deny IS a "safe haven." The third step, which he said would be the "most difficult task," would be to "change the facts on the ground."

                  "How do we change the facts on the ground? If we prevent the creation of these kinds of people, this kind of an organization, that's a long-term project, and one that, frankly, will be very difficult for us to do," he said.

                  In light of events in Iraq, Hayden warned it is not prudent for the United States to withdraw from Afghanistan, as President Barack Obama has pledged to do before the end of his second term.

                  "The president has promised this withdrawal by the time he leaves office. By the time he leaves the Oval [Office], he's going to make Afghanistan look like Iraq. That's not a good plan," he said.


                  Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/Mi...#ixzz3B352R1nm
                  Urgent: Should Obamacare Be Repealed? Vote Here Now!

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
                    Mine is only that the reaction you occasionally get is more based around your method of delivery of your point than the point itself. That's my view of it, anyway. That you acknowledge being snarky doesn't make you any else snarky to the guy at the other end so don't be surprised at a negative reaction.

                    Hey, like it was stated earlier, you're free to do what you want (within the rules, of course). I'm not even suggesting you do things differently because it's not my place to. I was just pointing what seemed like a bump in the road to meeting your stated goal.
                    And sometimes even I have to "vent", to "blow off steam", and "get it off my chest". Or as I called it in my post "decompress". Only my venting wasn't against a company, it was against the people venting at that company.

                    But I'll TRY not to make a habit of it.

                    Strangely enough, having gotten it off my chest, I feel all talked out on this particular point, and can't think of a further thing to add.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Magno View Post
                      Vote Now: Do You Approve Or Disapprove of President Obama's Job Performance?
                      Link seems to be missing.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Magno View Post
                        ...
                        Share:

                        Get Short Link | Email Article | Comment | Contact Us | Print | A A

                        ...

                        inShare...
                        Story continues below video.

                        Note: Watch Newsmax TV now on DIRECTV Ch. 349 and DISH Ch. 223
                        Get Newsmax TV on your cable system – Click Here Now
                        ...
                        Vote Now: Do You Approve Or Disapprove of President Obama's Job Performance?
                        ...
                        Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/Mi...#ixzz3B352R1nm
                        Urgent: Should Obamacare Be Repealed? Vote Here Now!
                        Can I suggest that when you're quoting a story, you not just cut and paste the entire thing, including junk like the above? A small quote, plus a link to the original, would be a lot better.
                        Last edited by ChastMastr; 08-21-2014, 08:32 PM.

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                        • #87
                          And on another note... what the heck does that have to do with the topic at hand??

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
                            And on another note... what the heck does that have to do with the topic at hand??
                            I was wondering that too, but was afraid to ask.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              What was the deal with Fighting Yank, anyway?

                              Q: In Project Superpowers, why did Fighting Yank betray his fellow superheroes and entrap them within The Urn (otherwise known as “Pandora’s Box”)?

                              A: He was tricked or duped into doing so, believing that his actions were serving the greater good.

                              To understand exactly HOW he was tricked (it's slightly complicated), you need to read Project Superpowers #0 (which should look like one of the covers pictured below on the left or right) as carefully as possible.

                              *There are still a couple of aspects behind this, such as WHO exactly was doing the tricking, and the MEANS by which it was accomplished (since Bruce Carter III's ghostly ancestor was also convinced of this same "greater good") that are less-straightforwardly explained. A basic framework rationale is given for how things played out, on the surface of things, but the motivation behind the trickery, the exact nature of the forces it was being directed from, is left more vague. We can say "the forces of evil", sure. But WHAT evil? From WHERE? HOW does this evil have the power to deceive a ghost? When it comes down to it, the trickster or tricksters seem to rely for the success of their deception on Bruce Carter III's and his ancestral ghost's OWN beliefs, their own capacity for SELF-deception. The commentary that seems to be being made here is, to quote the words of philosopher Freidrich Nietzche, "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster". In other words, in opposing that which you find antithetical to your beliefs, be careful not to adopt its methods. Perhaps more simply, "The ends do not justify the means". It's possible to read this as a metaphor for the resolution of WWII itself, that the winning of that war did not justify the means used, that of sacrificing the multitudinous lives of the noncombatants living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Unlike American noncombatants, their form of government was not a democracy in which they had any active participation to choose their leaders as representative of their own will as a people. There is also a line of dialogue in issue #0, in which the Black Terror expresses the need to free the German people from the evil influence of Adolf Hitler, that tends to reinforce this interpretation.

                              Further elaboration on the details of the story to follow when I can find the time.

                              Click image for larger version

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                              Last edited by pulphero; 08-22-2014, 03:50 AM.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                                I was wondering that too, but was afraid to ask.
                                I think it was to do with Absolute Evil.

                                After reading your posts I suffered. Your rationalizations are kind of humorous. You are reasonably good at ducking and dodging the points. God help us with your kind of reasoning.

                                And as far as God and Suffering: www.prageruniversity.com
                                Last edited by Magno; 08-22-2014, 06:59 PM.

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