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  • Why is it "wonky" for HEROES to try to effect the surrender of Japan (regardless of how un-thought-out the plan was, we're talking about the INTENT), WITHOUT the loss of many more civilian casualties?
    IF -- as was their intention -- they could accomplish the SAME thing (the surrender of Japan) without the loss of those lives, WHY wouldn't they? HOW is that un-characteristic of heroes? The MISSION is not "stop the dropping of the bomb" (that was an afterthought). The mission is "get the Japanese to surrender BEFORE another bomb can be dropped, and thus save civilian lives" -- that is an important distinction. This is another situation (which we DON'T see ever addressed in the Golden Age comics, but we DO see in stories from the 1970s onward that deal with superheroes in WWII) where the heroes are making a moral distinction between the GOVERNMENTS (and those governments' ideologies and political policies) that they're fighting against, and the ordinary civilian non-combatant living in Germany or Japan, who may or may not support the agenda of a government that they themselves didn't democratically vote into power. As I stated before, earlier in the PSP story it's referred to by Black Terror as "we've got the free the German people from the evil influence of Adolf Hitler". What this means is that the PSP heroes realize that what we're REALLY fighting against in WWII are the ideologies of fascism and imperialism, and the military-industrial complexes in power that enforce those ideologies -- and that they recognize that unlike democracy, those forms of government aren't representative of THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE in Germany and Japan. In essence, the German people and the Japanese people are merely pawns on a chessboard, sold a bill of goods by their own government's propaganda, and being manipulated by the master planners in power. The PSP heroes want to free those people from "evil influence", because they believe in the inherent good of most ordinary people. Undoubtedly there were evils being committed by some people at every level in that situation, but the PSP heroes believe that "evil influence" represents a minority in positions of power, not the majority of the populace, who are just trying to get by in their ordinary lives and survive. And indeed, when we look at Germany and Japan today, we don't see people who are evil, now that they are freed from the oppressive rulers and false ideologies that they served during WWII. Americans have never had to try to endure and survive a situation of government in which they have no voice and no recourse, so what's called for here is a little bit of empathy. And WHY do the PSP heroes continue to believe in the inherent good of humanity, despite the horrors of war surrounding them? The story TELLS you that -- they believe this because they are supposed to represent the HOPE that was released from Pandora's Box, along with all the evils of the world.

    You're presenting it as though NO, THE "HEROES" (NOT ACTING LIKE HEROES) WANTED THE WAR TO CONTINUE... which just isn't true. But this is what you get. That one part of the story could easily have filled an entire issue, but instead, it's crammed into what, about 6 pages? If there were some sort of convincing logic behind the heroes' plan to get the Japanese to surrender, it wasn't able to be delivered somewhere in those 6 pages. But this is part of the general problem of PSP... too much of EVERYTHING (characters, plot, et. al) is trying to be crammed into just so many pages. As the story stands, I have no problem understanding the rationale of the characters -- the WHAT (to get Japan to surrender) and the WHY (in order to save lives) of it is clear enough, it's the HOW (or details of the exact means by which they hope to accomplish it) that's lacking here.

    The Captain America Comics #1 cover was used as an EXAMPLE (hopefully an iconic one that anyone could recognize) of Golden Age comic books showing something happening that IN REAL LIFE would have had a huge effect on the course of WWII. The point being made here is that the result of all these "fictional Allied victories" in comic books is never shown (in the fictional stories themselves) as having ANY effect. So in essence, it doesn't MATTER whether an Allied superhero was able to breach Fortress Europa, to the heart of Berlin itself, to deliver to Adolf Hitler a richly-deserved and symbolic sock on the jaw. It's as if Captain America was never even there (or maybe you could explain it away in this particular case as "the Allies had no proof, and Germany wrote it off as Allied lies and propaganda" -- but HITLER would know the truth). If there were a better example (that everyone would recognize) featuring one of the PSP characters from a Golden Age comic book, I would have used that.
    Last edited by pulphero; 09-22-2014, 07:27 AM.

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    • Originally posted by Magno View Post
      Explain that, if you will??
      ...
      And please explain why it wasn't problematic to you??
      We've been over the morality (or lack thereof) of using the atomic bomb on civilians during WWII quite enough, I believe, and nothing you have said has convinced me it was morally acceptable. We're obviously at a philosophical impasse here. Sorry, but I have nothing new to add to this.

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      • Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
        We've been over the morality (or lack thereof) of using the atomic bomb on civilians during WWII quite enough, I believe, and nothing you have said has convinced me it was morally acceptable. We're obviously at a philosophical impasse here. Sorry, but I have nothing new to add to this.
        The morality of the bomb should have been explained by the Prager U. presentation and my previous explanations.
        It's hard for leftists to admit they are wrong, so I accept your position.

        The death of more people: Allied deaths, American deaths, and Japanese deaths, would have been more "moral". Got it.!!

        Personally, I can't understand the positions of the Left and that just one of the reasons I left the Left.

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        • Originally posted by Magno View Post
          The morality of the bomb should have been explained by the Prager U. presentation and my previous explanations.
          It's hard for leftists to admit they are wrong, so I accept your position.

          The death of more people: Allied deaths, American deaths, and Japanese deaths, would have been more "moral". Got it.!!

          Personally, I can't understand the positions of the Left and that just one of the reasons I left the Left.
          .... this. This is what I meant by acting like a troll. And being insulting. And generally behaving like a jerk.

          Please knock it off.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by leonmallett View Post
            The problem for DE and their punctuality for me is based on the DE books I have bought, especially when we as buyers are typically conditioned to buying monthly, or at least I am. Therefore a break of one month or more feels like a delay.

            Project Superpowers chapters 1 and 2 had delays
            Black Terror experienced some delays, both when solicited as a 4 issue series, and then after when it returned from hiatus as an ongoing.
            Death Defying Devil was monthly.
            Masquerade had a one month delay.
            Meet The Bad Guys seemed to hit monthly from a quick look at the data I can find.
            The Owl hit monthly.
            Kirby Genesis had delays.
            Silver Star had a one month delay.
            Captain Victory had a couple of delays.
            Dragonsbane had a couple of delays, one a mighty ten months of course.
            Super Zombies had no apparent delays.

            So of the twelve series above, eight had delays of varying amounts. That is why DE have work to do to reassure me they can be punctual. Now I have no expectation they have any desire nor compulsion to influence me personally, but those delays, and the wait between series set in the Project Superpowers milieu specifically, stopped me considering buying more from DE, and make me more than a little wary about the reboot. I will buy into it, but could I, or hypothetically would I, recommend DE books or DE as a comics publisher to other people based on my experience? That would be the acid test I guess.

            So while one poster may see this as negativity, it is borne out of my experience with DE as a customer, and my perspective is coloured by that, like it or not. That is why I think DE have work to do to really demonstrate that they are better organized than they have previously shown, otherwise my opinion won't change. Just this poster's opinion and experience of course.
            Just seeing this now, Leon...To clarify, I don't necessarily think that the Dynamite has solved all its problems timing-wise, but I do think they've improved from the days of hving multiple months between issues. That's my perception from seeing the books pop up on comixology, anyway.

            I may be giving them the benefit of the doubt a bit more than I should. In the past, they would go on a bi-monthly schedule when a book was nearing the end of it srun, but wouldn't tell anyone. When it seems a little long between issues now, I just assume they're doing that very thing. but it could be that they're just...late.

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            • Originally posted by ChastMastr View Post
              We've been over the morality (or lack thereof) of using the atomic bomb on civilians during WWII quite enough, I believe, and nothing you have said has convinced me it was morally acceptable. We're obviously at a philosophical impasse here. Sorry, but I have nothing new to add to this.
              Not to stir this up any more than it already has but to tell the truth, at the time, I wish the CHARACTERS had had the debate that you two are having.

              I find it hard to believe that all of these guys (and gals) were completely, fully agreed on the course of action taken. I assumed then that the writer feels a certain way, is convinced that his opinion is "right", that heroes do the right thing, so heroes did what he thought heroes would have done without really considering the other point of view.

              I found some of the debates between Lama and Terror later to be among the more interesting aspects of the book. But in volume one, there's none of that despite having to make a decision that affects the course of the entire world. Yikes.

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              • Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
                Just seeing this now, Leon...To clarify, I don't necessarily think that the Dynamite has solved all its problems timing-wise, but I do think they've improved from the days of hving multiple months between issues. That's my perception from seeing the books pop up on comixology, anyway.

                I may be giving them the benefit of the doubt a bit more than I should. In the past, they would go on a bi-monthly schedule when a book was nearing the end of it srun, but wouldn't tell anyone. When it seems a little long between issues now, I just assume they're doing that very thing. but it could be that they're just...late.
                It is great you feel they are improving. I sincerely mean that.

                For me though, they have a lot of work to do to offset my perceptions. It does not mean they are not better, they may be doing very well in terms of timeliness. However right now my perceptions are based on my indivdiual consumer experience. It is going to take some steady timely consecutive releases to overcome those perceptions based on what I experienced as a paying customer. Which is why I would t challenge anyone who tries to suggest that based on my experience I can neither hold my views nor express them (and I know you are not saying that Captain Canuck, I'm just making a more general comment ).

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                • Originally posted by leonmallett View Post
                  It is great you feel they are improving. I sincerely mean that.

                  For me though, they have a lot of work to do to offset my perceptions. It does not mean they are not better, they may be doing very well in terms of timeliness. However right now my perceptions are based on my indivdiual consumer experience. It is going to take some steady timely consecutive releases to overcome those perceptions based on what I experienced as a paying customer. Which is why I would t challenge anyone who tries to suggest that based on my experience I can neither hold my views nor express them (and I know you are not saying that Captain Canuck, I'm just making a more general comment ).
                  No problem, I get where you're coming from.

                  Full disclosure, I haven't bought anything regularly from Dynamite in months. Right now, the company is simply not putting out books that interest me, at least week in week out. So my perception of their current ability to remain on a schedule may not be the most accurate (as I write it out, I'm reminded that some were questioning when middle issues of Legenderry were finally going to appear, so...).

                  And I don't blame you anyway. It's tough to overcome having made a bad impression. it's Dynamite's job to change your mind, really.

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                  • Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
                    No problem, I get where you're coming from.

                    Full disclosure, I haven't bought anything regularly from Dynamite in months. Right now, the company is simply not putting out books that interest me, at least week in week out. So my perception of their current ability to remain on a schedule may not be the most accurate (as I write it out, I'm reminded that some were questioning when middle issues of Legenderry were finally going to appear, so...).

                    And I don't blame you anyway. It's tough to overcome having made a bad impression. it's Dynamite's job to change your mind, really.
                    Indeed. Whether they agree that damage has been done with their erratic releasing is only for them to say really, but it is a perception of DE I have read from others here and elsewhere, so some degree of damage has been done by their past practices whether they choose to recognise it or not.

                    That said, I will give the new Project Superpowers a chance, when it appears.

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                    • Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
                      I find it hard to believe that all of these guys (and gals) were completely, fully agreed on the course of action taken. I assumed then that the writer feels a certain way, is convinced that his opinion is "right", that heroes do the right thing, so heroes did what he thought heroes would have done without really considering the other point of view.
                      I take it that it's been some time since you've revisited PSP, Captain. It may be time for a refresher. Disagreeing on things is just about all the heroes DO in this series. In WWII, most of the heroes disagree with Fighting Yank about his method of fixing the evils of WWII (containing "hope" back in the urn -- in other words, THEM), and that's what starts the whole plot off here. Then when SOME of the heroes go to Japan before the second bomb is dropped, to get the Japanese to surrender, it's obviously NOT all of them... go back again and look.

                      In the present, the entire series revolved much more about the various factions of the superheroes doing their own thing, and often as not fighting EACH OTHER, as opposed to the Claw or the Supremacy or Zeus (but hey, Zeus is actually one of the PSPers -- Captain Future, so that counts as well, as does Dynamic Man and the Dynamic Family, who are part of the Supremacy -- heck, even Scarab is part of the Supremacy). There's tense disagreement between Fighting Yank and his Revolutionary War ancestor, and between his ancestor and the American Spirit, as well. Then there are the constant bickering between Black Terror (who wants nothing more at first than to KILL Fighting Yank), and Green Lama (those two come to blows at one point as well). Add to that the various factions of the PSPers at odds with one another... Green Lama's group, President West's (aka Power Nelson's) Superpatriots, the Supremacy-manipulated Mysterymen, and Boy King's Inheritors. Then there are the little cliques who all have their own agendas... the Big Shots, the team of Ghost, Silver Streak and 'Devil, the new heroes Truth & Dare. Now that I think of it, once the secret of Daredevil was revealed, I'm not sure WHOSE side he was really on. Was the sentient costume of that Aborigine tribe REALLY some kind of... devil? Or THE Devil? Dare (who I assume is Islamic) refers to him as "Shaitan" after she inherits Truth's power to know the truth.

                      But there is at least one philosophical conversation in there where Green Lama and Black Terror finally resolve their issues.
                      Last edited by pulphero; 09-23-2014, 07:58 PM.

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                      • I should also note that the title of the series, PROJECT SUPERPOWERS, is somewhat misleading. That title, and the word "Project" itself, is never even used in the story itself. "Superpowers" here is a generic term, like "metahumans" or "mutants"... it's not meant to indicate, either in WWII or in the present, any sort of "superteam" like the All Star Squadron, or the Legion of Super-Heroes. Perhaps the fact that DC previously used the title SUPER POWERS as part of the Kenner toy line of the 1980s, and one incarnation of the animated cartoon SUPER FRIENDS (subtitled "The Legendary Super Powers Team") lends itself to this confusion as well. Even during WWII, there's no "team" except to the extent that the individual heroes each volunteer their services to aid the Allied victory. The only one with any "official" capacity is Fighting Yank, who is with the OSI. As far as the group of heroes that band together to invade Japan, again, it's only approximately a 6-page sequence, and we're not given the slightest indication on how those particular characters put their heads together and agreed upon their plan to go to Japan to get the country to surrender before another bomb could be dropped. We only see them acting together in concert, which tends to give the impression of a level of organization that doesn't really exist. Think of it as a "crisis" situation, but those who go obviously don't account for all the heroes existing at that time.

                        Such "teams" as do appear in the series among these superpowered characters are either loose alliances, or are definitely named: The Dynamic Family, The Big Shots, the Superpatriots, the Mysterymen, the Inheritors.
                        Last edited by pulphero; 09-23-2014, 08:42 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                          I take it that it's been some time since you've revisited PSP, Captain. It may be time for a refresher. Disagreeing on things is just about all the heroes DO in this series. In WWII, most of the heroes disagree with Fighting Yank about his method of fixing the evils of WWII (containing "hope" back in the urn -- in other words, THEM), and that's what starts the whole plot off here. Then when SOME of the heroes go to Japan before the second bomb is dropped, to get the Japanese to surrender, it's obviously NOT all of them... go back again and look.
                          I was being specific to dropping the bomb. All the other stuff has nothing to do with what I wrote to Chast.

                          In issue zero, Yank specifies that they went on something of a peace mission to try to prevent the dropping of the second one Japan refused to surrender. There is nothing to suggest that anyone was opposed to attempting to stop the second bombing. It's stated as "we" went, not "some of us", not "those of us who felt a second bomb was the wrong thing to do" or "those of us who objected". It was "we" which I take to mean the entire group regardless of whether or not every single character is squeezed onto a page.

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                          • Originally posted by Captain Canuck View Post
                            I was being specific to dropping the bomb. All the other stuff has nothing to do with what I wrote to Chast.

                            In issue zero, Yank specifies that they went on something of a peace mission to try to prevent the dropping of the second one Japan refused to surrender. There is nothing to suggest that anyone was opposed to attempting to stop the second bombing. It's stated as "we" went, not "some of us", not "those of us who felt a second bomb was the wrong thing to do" or "those of us who objected". It was "we" which I take to mean the entire group regardless of whether or not every single character is squeezed onto a page.
                            Neither does anything he says indicate that his statement equates to "every existing superhero that was known to the Allied powers participated in this mission". All "we" indicates here is "me and others". Since there's no "membership roster" of superheroes, (and no actual superhero team) he's not referring to ANY defined group of characters. If you see them in Japan, or they're referenced in dialogue somehow, you can assume they were there. You can certainly look at Alex Ross' character sketches in the back of PSP and see that there were many superheroes that are nominally part of the Golden Age group of PSP characters that don't show up there. If ALL of the characters in Ross' catalog had showed up, they'd certainly have had a much better chance of accomplishing that mission. This is WWII. The heroes don't have instantaneous global comm systems and teleportation devices like the Avengers or the Justice League, and this mission was unsanctioned, so you can assume they received no help in organizing it from Allied Command. Furthermore, the time frame between the dropping of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima and the second bomb being dropped just isn't large enough to allow the organization and mobilizing of every superhero on earth. There's not even any indication that all of these characters KNOW each other. It's entirely possible that there WAS discussion, and some characters chose not to go (and if this were the actual case, it's unlikely Yank would pause in his narration to enumerate the list of those naysayers); the other possibility is that only certain characters who knew and felt they could trust each other were even contacted or informed of the plan. Undoubtedly many more were unaware of those heroes' plan. The fact of the matter is, the smaller the actual group who knew of the plan, the less chances of dissension within those ranks.

                            What I'm seeing here is a knee-jerk reaction of a relatively smaller group of characters (than all of those shown in Alex Ross' Golden Age gallery) to the shock and horror of the revelation of the heretofore-unguessed level of mass destruction that was the atomic bombing of Hiroshima; a quickly-assembled mission of like-minded heroes who already knew each other, with almost no real practical planning. I sort of get the impression you were hoping to see the typical Marvel-style "let's solve this difference of opinion with some good old-fashioned fisticuffs". Just because there wasn't a big beef with one group of heroes trying to go to Japan, and another trying to stop them, doesn't mean everyone thought exactly alike. It's just impossible to show every single thing every hero thought, said, or did in the number of pages the series had, to deal with such a HUGE cast of characters.

                            But perhaps more to the point, since it's demonstrated throughout the entire series that the characters are constantly NOT like-minded, why would you "assume" (because they didn't mention otherwise) that everyone was just buddy-buddy hunky-dory all the time and always in agreement about everything? Just because there wasn't room in that "mission to Japan" flashback sequence to show every single detail, like the characters finding out about the first bomb, reacting (with different reactions), having arguments, and then getting into a brawl over it. Certainly there would have existed an attitude of "we've all got to pull together to win this war", but in this specific instance, you can see that the characters that did go on this mission weren't following orders from higher up, so who's in charge and what's the proper course of action wasn't as clear-cut as most earlier war scenarios they'd have found themselves in. I'd have loved to see that sequence take up an entire issue, but then again, there were a lot of sections of the story that could have benefited from similar expansion.

                            You can cast the whole thing in an entirely different light by changing one line of dialogue. If they show a group of characters reacting to the news of the devastation of Hiroshima, and then learning of the plan to drop a second atomic bomb, and someone says "My God! We've got to go to Japan and convince, or force, the Japanese to surrender, before another bomb can be dropped! The destruction of life is just... too horrible!" then an entirely different reaction follows than if that same character had instead uttered the line of dialogue, "My God! This thing is just too horrifying, too inhumane, for any war! We've got to go to Japan and prevent them from dropping that second bomb!", after which a second character calls his loyalty into question and the usual superhero barroom brawl ensues, with various character splitting into two factions. But it's not an either/or thing -- just because people weren't yelling at each other or throwing punches, doesn't mean "we're all on the same page here, we're all good with this". We've all grown up seeing the films of the spreading mushroom clouds, but this thing was entirely new and unprecedented in 1945, probably hard for people to suddenly wrap their mind around, likely to be much more shocking at the time than it is to people who've lived in the shadow of the Cold War. Immediate polarization of opinion "for" or "against" aren't the only options here -- there may have been a lot of confused feelings about "aren't we supposed to be the good guys?.
                            Last edited by pulphero; 09-24-2014, 03:07 AM.

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                            • Originally posted by pulphero View Post
                              But perhaps more to the point, since it's demonstrated throughout the entire series that the characters are constantly NOT like-minded, why would you "assume" (because they didn't mention otherwise) that everyone was just buddy-buddy hunky-dory all the time and always in agreement about everything? Just because there wasn't room in that "mission to Japan" flashback sequence to show every single detail, like the characters finding out about the first bomb, reacting (with different reactions), having arguments, and then getting into a brawl over it.
                              I already explained that. It's from the dialogue. You mention that a line of dialogue would have changed everything in a single scene. I said that very thing as well about that portion of the story. If they wanted to indicate that some characters were opposed to the idea, Yank could have said "Those of us who..." There's no need for additional room, just different handling of the space you did have.

                              By the way, It's my interpretation of the info provided, but it's no more an assumption than "they've argued at other times, so they must have argued then".

                              When the book reaches that point of the story, there's a pretty great 2-page spread of the heroes in battle. If I recall correctly, The Flame is not on it. But he DOES appear on the next page or two when he's approached by Yank. So obviously not all the characters present appeared on the spread but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

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                              • I should add...It shouldn't be up to us to justify our perceptions of what happened. I like Jim Krueger as a writer, I think he comes up with good stuff. But there's sometimes a lack of clarity there.

                                The reason I remember this is because years ago another poster was annoyed at the same thing as me (he read it the same way, that every hero involved tried to stop the bomb). When I tried to explain Kreuger's view of things, the other poster got annoyed and I had to clarify that I wasn't defending Krueger's view, just trying to explain what I thought his view was.

                                I recall the other poster being annoyed that the dialogue wasn't clear, though the example given was the bit about "while they were distracted by the symptoms of the war, I fought the war itself" or something along those lines. A number of times back then, people tried to decipher what Krueger was trying to get across, so that someone perceived the events of issue zero differently than I did is about the furthest thing from surprising.

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