"FROM THE PAGES OF...PROJECT SUPERPOWERS COMES HERO KILLERS"

[Guest]

Only with the Right team can we succeed....!!

Yet barely anyone seems to be able to accomplish it. Both Black Hammer and Lobster Johnson are creator-owned titles, and they are rarer than hen's teeth in being superhero titles (of a sort, I guess) that are making it in this marketplace -- but maybe it's only worth the effort those creative teams put into them because it IS a creator-owned title. And maybe if you are Robert Kirkman or Mike Mignola or someone on that level of popularity, you can draw an audience for a non-Marvel/non-DC superhero title. Maybe DE should have asked Jeff Lemire, before he created his own book!!


"Rarer than hen's teeth"... indeed.!! ...And maybe they succeed because they ARE creator-owned titles. But someone on that Level of popularity was what I had argued for in the past ... and I thought you guys shot down the idea. (I think I argued for people like Alan Moore as writer and Quietly as artist... not that that would ever happen.)
Alex Ross once said he would like to work with Moore someday. Alex has done some GREAT covers for Dynamite.... and if somebody had ... whatever it takes... to speak with Moore about possibly working with Ross .... [ All I'm saying is that with the right approach -- somebody COULD bring a good writer and a good artist together to bring back these heroes. Maybe not Alan Moore (who said he still wants to do one more comic series) ... and maybe not Alex Ross ... but these Golden Age Heroes still have some 'juice' ... and with the RIGHT writer and the RIGHT artist ... it could work.

Terra Obscura was a pretty good series with the NEDOR HEROES... that 'worked'. And Yanick Paquette wasn't really a 'household name' then.
(Although I don't know the numbers.)

Again, ... all I'm saying is that IF handled right, ... and with the RIGHT creative team... these Golden Age Heroes could be successful again.
Lemire could have used ANY of these Golden Age hero groups and his title, BLACK HAMMER, would have been just as successful. (For my money, even more so.)

...and maybe DE 'SHOULD' have asked Jeff Lemire to write a series before "he created his own book."

So, why wasn't that done.??
DE has the characters ... they HAD one of THEE best(if not the best) cover artists ... Alex Ross for the series... but didn't get a writer .... and didn't get an artist to make it work.
Two out of four doesn't cut it.

You NEED that writer that can get today's audience engaged.
You NEED that artist that can draw some great pictures to capture today's audience visually.
DE can't ... or they don't 'get it'.

I'm sorry ... but the writing for PSP was like a 'first draft' .... and a good editor could have, should have, fixed it.


Don't forget that Dark Horse tried launching a line of company-owned superhero characters not once, but twice... and ultimately failed both times. More recently, Archie Comics tried it with their 'Dark Circle' line... also not making it.

Yes, Dark Horse did launch a line of company-owned superhero characters ... twice... but the way they did it .... well, to me, .... looked like they were bound to fail ... both times.
They should have had a different 'roll-out' !! The heroes were pretty bland.!! IT all looked messy... too messy ... to get involved in.

Image's Invincible, Spawn, Witchblade, and Savage Dragon continue to eke along, but they are not big sellers. Meanwhile, Rob Liefeld can't seem to get a relaunch of Youngblood to actually gain an audience. (I've lost count of which number relaunch/reboot he's on now.) AND these are books by the original Image founders that were million+ sellers a mere 25 ago!! As for Valiant Comics... are those even superhero titles? It's hard for me to recognize them as such.
Yeah, I don't get it, either.!!
I hoped Larsen would, instead of Savage Dragon, do some of the Golden Age heroes ...as an on-going ... which I would have bought. He has a fun style ... but I'm not a Savage Dragon fan.
The others I just don't get!!

Either way... there's still a little nostalgia for the comics of 25 years ago, not so much for the comics of 75 years ago.

Well, then... if not 'nostalgia' ... write them to satisfy today's audience. Maybe they won't notice. LOL!!

[Guest]

Archie doesn't return the MLJ characters....

Oh, ... and the Dark Circle at Archie....!!??

Why?? Why do they do that... when they have the MLJ heroes to bring back.??

I've argued for the Return of The Mighty Crusaders...
They've got great heroes in The Shield, The Wizard, Black Hood, Steel Sterling, ... and some of the other MLJ heroes.

Instead, ... they go 'dark'. Such a disappointment.
Such a 'waste'.
Much like DE.!!
To have the heroes ... and not make them 'work' ... is 'such a waste'.

I wonder what would have happened if Archie Adventure Series would have tried to keep Simon and Kirby on The Fly and The Shield ... and bring in The Black Hood, Fly-Girl ... and others for The Crusaders.
Or if they had put a very good writer and artist on The Mighty Crusaders ... instead of Jerry Siegel and Paul Reinman.

Archie/Red Circle could have established a 'Foundation' to build on .... ( one of my favorite messages) and could have continued to bring a more quality product to the fans.

This way, EVERYTHING is on shaky ground.!! And it will be harder to build a fan base ... for either Red Circle.... or DE's PSP.!!

[pulphero]

I thought ACP had a pretty good start in THE NEW CRUSADERS, back when it was still Red Circle, and that Dean Haspiel & Mark Waid's THE FOX was in some ways even better -- just a tremendous fun comic book.

Obviously the marketplace disagreed with me, so then ACP decided to take a sharp turn into a "Dark" place. That seems to have grabbed a little curiosity value when it was first hyped, but it petered out pretty fast with all the delays in publishing, and now it indeed seems like they're just spinning their wheels, going around in "Circles". Someone at ACP sure seems committed to trying to stick it out, despite a collective yawn from marketplace.

Another thing that occurs to me is that some publishers just have an uphill battle in terms of trying to live down the kinds of comics they published in the past... they are automatically dismissed or not taken seriously by a vast percentage of consumers, just based on what they've published for years before. That applies to both Archie Comics and Dynamite Entertainment.

It's just not a level playing field. Companies like DE can't afford to compete for talent with the deeper pockets of bigger publishers, which is why it's going to be hard to get the big name creators to both write and draw. And for DE, maybe even the upper-mid-level creators.

[Guest]

Desperate times....

I thought ACP had a pretty good start in THE NEW CRUSADERS, back when it was still Red Circle, and that Dean Haspiel & Mark Waid's THE FOX was in some ways even better -- just a tremendous fun comic book.

Obviously the marketplace disagreed with me, so then ACP decided to take a sharp turn into a "Dark" place. That seems to have grabbed a little curiosity value when it was first hyped, but it petered out pretty fast with all the delays in publishing, and now it indeed seems like they're just spinning their wheels, going around in "Circles". Someone at ACP sure seems committed to trying to stick it out, despite a collective yawn from marketplace.

Another thing that occurs to me is that some publishers just have an uphill battle in terms of trying to live down the kinds of comics they published in the past... they are automatically dismissed or not taken seriously by a vast percentage of consumers, just based on what they've published for years before. That applies to both Archie Comics and Dynamite Entertainment.

It's just not a level playing field. Companies like DE can't afford to compete for talent with the deeper pockets of bigger publishers, which is why it's going to be hard to get the big name creators to both write and draw. And for DE, maybe even the upper-mid-level creators.

Yes. I fear that may be the biggest problem. Without those 'deep pockets' it's harder to compete.
I always thought Archie would have a little more money because of those Archie titles... and have a little 'extra' money to hire some 'good help'.
It doesn't look that way when they would hire Seigel and Reinman. (???)

Something is going on at Archie ... and DE ... for that matter, ... that I just don't understand.

I would even go for,--- in my desperation of times--- Roy Thomas and ... Steve Butler.
Steve Butler has a fun style ... and I think DE could get him. (Afford him.)
Steve could use a little experience.
I would think you get get both for ... not much money.

I think Roy would like to write again. And he loves the Golden Age stuff. Especially, around WWII.

Or ... there might be others..... maybe... maybe Eric Larsen would walk away from the Savage Dragon ... for a chance to take a crack at the NEDOR HEROES!!

Anyway, ... I would think they would be trying to find somebody ..... with a 'fun style' .... and a writer who knew what he was doing.
But nothing is happening except this 'Killer' book.
If you were there, wouldn't you have figured out something by now!!???
I would have been constantly reaching out or searching ....
... because, to me..... a super-hero title or two is the core of any successful comic company.

I think you're right about most of the other stuff, too. The Fox was fun ... for too short a period.
I was hoping it would lead to bigger things. (Crest fallen again.)

The Archie 'Dark' stuff ... was disappointing. A female Shield ... a different Black Hood ... just a 'miss' all around.
I twittered them ... saying that the MLJ heroes would kick that editor's ass.
Of course, they kicked me off twitter.

I still think there is 'juice' in those MLJ heroes, .... as well as the DE Golden Age heroes... I just still don't get it. (I'm slow.)

[positronic]

Yes. I fear that may be the biggest problem. Without those 'deep pockets' it's harder to compete.
I always thought Archie would have a little more money because of those Archie titles... and have a little 'extra' money to hire some 'good help'.
It doesn't look that way when they would hire Seigel and Reinman. (???)

Something is going on at Archie ... and DE ... for that matter, ... that I just don't understand.

Before you dismiss Siegel & Reinman's "Mighty Comics" work, it's helpful to understand what was going on in comic book publishing in 1964/1965. Jerry was once again pursuing legal action to obtain some rights as the creator of Superman, so his work dried up at DC. He briefly tried out as a writer for Stan Lee, but things didn't work out, so Marvel was out for him too. Many of the adults who had been working for years in the comic book industry just couldn't "get" what it was about the resurgence of the superhero genre in the early Silver Age, and what Marvel, in particular, was doing that was grabbing the young adult readers. This was the era of "pop art" and "camp", so a middle-age adult like Jerry viewing Marvel's comics saw something quite different than the young fans did. There seemed to be this POV like "They can't be taking this stuff seriously, can they?", and probably just focusing on Stan Lee's flippant dialogue, the melodramatic slugfests, etc., they probably saw it as ironic, self-parodying. Siegel was by no means the only one. Just look at some of DC's titles from around that same time, stuff like Arnold Drake's DOOM PATROL, or Bob Haney's METAMORPHO or TEEN TITANS. Or series like ECLIPSO or PRINCE RA-MAN, the revived PLASTIC MAN... all kinds of weird stuff DC was publishing in response to Marvel's increasing market share. Later Jerry revived THE OWL (2 issues) for Gold Key/Western. And how about the line of superheroes Joe Simon edited for Harvey Comics? All that stuff was absolutely cast from the same mold as Jerry Siegel's SHADOW, FLY-MAN, or MIGHTY CRUSADERS. And Reinman had not only worked on the Golden Age iterations of the MLJ characters, he'd recently been one of Jack Kirby's major inkers over at Marvel just a couple years prior, so he probably seemed like the best qualified candidate the company could get. ACP's editors knew superheroes were a risky venture for them, and they probably thought it was just another fad that would last a few more years before fading, so they weren't going to sink some serious bank into luring writers or artists away from the competition by offering better page rates. With 20/20 hindsight, sure they should have taken the superhero genre more seriously, but things probably looked a lot different from their perspective in 1965.

[positronic]

[/B]
Well, then... if not 'nostalgia' ... write them to satisfy today's audience. Maybe they won't notice. LOL!!

Believe it or don't, but I'm pretty sure that's what the editor of Archie's Dark Circle line thought he was doing, by turning the Black Hood into a drug-addicted, Punisher-style antihero (complete with 'mature readers' language), gender-swapping a classic Shield for a woman with a completely rebooted origin story, etc.

Yeah whatever, we've already seen it done, and seen it done much better by more talented creators. So they hire a writer like Duane Swiczieski, who's already written the Punisher, and whose X over at Dark Horse (an extremely similar character) couldn't get any marketplace traction, and why would they think a Black Hood remodeled in the same vein by the same writer would do any better?

Marvel or DC can sometimes get away with radical revamps like that (at least for a little while), but only because there are a number of baseline readers invested in their respective universes.

[MajorHoy]

By the way, if anybody is interested, it looks like a tpb collection of PROJECT SUPERPOWERS: HERO KILLERS will be available later this month. (Previewsworld currently lists it as "In Shops: Jan 24, 2018".)

http://www.dynamite.com/htmlfiles/vi...RO=C1524105295